# You dumbasses ever heard of "historical re-enactment" or what? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 12, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845 "2010-10-12T01:04:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/181 "2010-10-19T12:33:58Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Lott did not glorify the SS in his statements and I don’t think, you will find any - that is the official line anyhow. His name is Iott, not Lott. And no, _he_ didn’t glorify the SS. The group he re-enacted with does. I guess you want us to play the “he didn’t know what was on their website” game? > [@](#): > > Also, this would be the first time, that I heared of the US is forbidding people to have certain believes/choice of clothing etc, however retared these believes might be. We’re not talking about passing laws to forbid clothing, numbnuts. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/182 "2010-10-19T15:09:15Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Also, this would be the first time, that I heared of the US is forbidding people to have certain believes/choice of clothing etc, however retared these believes might be. [For your general education, then.](http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2001/07/15/loc_anti-mask_laws_are.html) ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/183 "2010-10-19T15:33:55Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > “I think that **they thought** they were fighting for their homeland” is a whitewashing? Did your mother get a pregnancy discount at the liquor store? > > Of course those nationalist bastards thought they were fighting for their homeland. That’s how nationalists think. It’s right there in the word. Do you believe the nazis thought they weren’t fighting for their Fatherland? Jesus, you’re stupid. A Belgian fighting in the army that is occupying his country is a nationalist? And thinks he’s fighting for _his_ country. Uh huh. If you don’t think that saying Josef Mengele’s division was “fighting for freedom” is a whitewash then there3’s not much point in trying to explain it to you. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/184 "2010-10-19T17:15:30Z")
A person who wears SS clothes , even in a reinactment, seems to be telling us something about himself. Most of us would never put on an outfit like that. It would feel wrong. If it feels right to him, I am a little uncomfortable . Sorry. he has his kid do it too. That makes me wonder more. It is not definitive about who he is. I would need more to put him on my shit list. But he has taken the first step to get on it. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/185 "2010-10-19T17:22:47Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Jesus, you’re stupid. A Belgian fighting in the army that is occupying his country is a nationalist? And thinks he’s fighting for _his_ country. Uh huh. > > If you don’t think that saying Josef Mengele’s division was “fighting for freedom” is a whitewash then there3’s not much point in trying to explain it to you. > [@](#): > > from their website > > “volunteers willing to lay down their lives to ensure a “New and Free Europe”, free of the threat of Communism.” A new and free Europe? New and completely under the power of fascist bastards who these chuckleheads want to dress up as and be respectful to. Fuck them and their Nazi fascist bastard heroes. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/186 "2010-10-20T04:28:34Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > It certainly is a very real belief, but it’s not very successful in practice. The surest way to stiffen an enemy’s resolve to fight to the very bitter end even when faced with an untenable situation rather than surrender is to execute prisoners. I didn’t say it was wholly justified/necessary in the modern context but just ask the Mongols if they believe it was effective. > [@Dissonance](#): > > Yes and no. For example from… Are you seriously going to pedantically cherry pick? Do I need to cite the countless examples of German recruits barfing their brains out while killing children. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/187 "2010-10-20T17:53:27Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I didn’t say it was wholly justified/necessary in the modern context but just ask the Mongols if they believe it was effective. If killing prisoners didn’t add to the resolve of their enemies to not be taken prisoner since they were going to be killed either way? > [@](#): > > Are you seriously going to pedantically cherry pick? Do I need to cite the countless examples of German recruits barfing their brains out while killing children. I’ll raise you [Einsatzgruppen](http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/einsatzgruppen.html) finding > [@](#): > > Shooting on this scale, particularly of women and children, was destroying the morale of the Einsatzgruppen. Some committed suicide, or were admitted to mental asylums. As Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski allegedly said to Himmler after the latter had witnessed a shooting action at Minsk in August 1941: > “Such men are finished for the rest of their lives! What kind of followers are we creating? Either neurotics or brutes.” > > As a consequence, it was decided to introduce “a new and better method of killing” – better, that is, for the executioners, not for the victims. The result was the Gaswagen (gas vans). I’m hardly pedantically nitpicking, conscripts are just as capable of atrocities as volunteers. [Reserve police batallion 101](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/battalion101.html) shot tens of thousands of Jews. The [My Lai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre) massacre was committed by conscripts. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/188 "2010-10-20T20:04:44Z")
> [@anya\_marie](#): > > There’s a huge difference in a gown and tiara playing princess and claiming that the SS were defending their homeland. Is it not true that Germany invaded Poland, and Sudetenland to reclaim them for the thrd Reich, or is the history i’ve history i’ve been reading seriously wrong? > > Defending their homeland; defending it from what, exactly, other people living in Europe? Scary Belgium, insane Luxembourg and terrifying Holland? **Disclaimer** : I don’t believe the following, and I don’t endorse it. However, in the interest of historical facts: The official line of the 3rd Reich was that 1. Germany needed “[Lebensraum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum)” place to live, and that was conventiently available in the East. Partly because there was more free land (as in, less densly populated) in that area; partly because the Slaws living there were sub-humans in the Nazi ideology, and therefore, killing them was not a problem, whereas in the other directions, there were a lot more people to displace (and ready to put up a fight) and those were Northern Aryans types; and partly the continuation of the Eastward push of the [German knights](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Crusade) back in the Middle ages bringing civilsation and Christianity into that area by felling trees, draining swamps, building cities and fortresses, from which they ruled the native Slaws (which eventually rebelled; and the death toll on North Germany in the [30-years war](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_Years_War) stopped that expansion finally). 2. Some Germans, the [Sudetendeutsche](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_Germans)and others, had lived for generations in Tschechia, slovakia and poland, built farms there (and ruled during the Austro-Hungarian empire). The official party line was that these Germans were being oppressed by the Slaws (many probably felt oppressed because they were no longer the rulers by virtue of being german, just normal citizens). In the months before Sept. 1st 1939, the German newspapers (controlled by the Nazis) carried countless stories of “Volksdeutsche” being harrassed in terrible ways by the Slaws in Poland and Tschechoslovakia (most of them made up). The crowning moment for this justifying were the German soliders dressed up as Poles attacking a radio station, so that Hitler could declare “Seit 5:45 wird zurückgeschossen” (Since 5:45 it’s being shot back), so it was defense of German-ness. ---
**Author:** ![pikey\_pete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pikey\_pete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pikey_pete)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/189 "2010-10-21T05:46:36Z")
when you’re involved in politics you must pay attention to image. If you’re going to do WWII reenactments…be in an American unit. far less controversial in AMERICA. There will always be a small but very loudly vocal minority who will attempt to crucify you. Keep their targeting systems off you as much as possible by being bland and benign. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/190 "2010-10-21T07:29:23Z")
You should also pay attention to image when doing WWII war reenactments in Germany. Prance around in an SS costume in that country and you could get arrested by the state and treated like a crazed nutjob by everyone else. Image is very important in Europe, but also in Asia, Africa, Latin America and the Pacific Islands. ---
**Author:** ![anya\_marie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@anya\_marie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anya_marie)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/191 "2010-10-22T07:40:31Z")
Thank you, Constanze for nswering my question. HAven’t read much about WWII lately but that concurs with history class. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/192 "2010-10-22T08:48:40Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > You should also pay attention to image when doing WWII war reenactments in Germany. Prance around in an SS costume in that country and you could get arrested by the state and treated like a crazed nutjob by everyone else. Image is very important in Europe, but also in Asia, Africa, Latin America and the Pacific Islands. I wouldn’t recommend you do it here, either. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/193 "2010-10-22T20:03:40Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > You should also pay attention to image when doing WWII war reenactments in Germany. Prance around in an SS costume in that country and you could get arrested by the state and treated like a crazed nutjob by everyone else. Oh, crazed nutjob is far too benefical. Unless you are an actor (theater/ movie)\*, and dress up as SS, you will be considered and called and treated as Neonazi. Not only by the law, but by the normal citizens. This is because we don’t have what you call “historical re-enactment”. We do have “experimental archeology”, where people who studied history and archaeology then go and live in re-created villages like the stake village at lake Boden or Haithabu, and try to recreate the techniques the people then used to produce the artifacts found. So they find out which method of weaving house walls from twigs is quickest / sturdiest/ easiest, or how long it takes to learn flint-knapping. This method does give useful information for history. The other categoy is role-playing, dressing up in medieval costumes and getting together for a weekend. This is done for fun. But re-creating battles is not common even among the larger medieval crowd - the guys playing mock tournaments at Schloss Kaltenberg were from France and later Eastern Europe. I fail to see any value in re-creating specific battles from the 20th century. Historians have enough documentation for that, both from the big-picture level (the orders from High Command) and from small-picture level (letters and diaries from soldiers). If you want to dress up and play, there are dozen of characters less controversial than SS and Nazis. - And even that movie or play will be carefully considered: if the piece is glorifying the Nazis in any way, instead of simply portraying them as historical figures/ events, than that piece will be not allowed by law. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/194 "2010-10-23T14:20:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > His name is Iott, not Lott. And no, _he_ didn’t glorify the SS. The group he re-enacted with does. I guess you want us to play the “he didn’t know what was on their website” game? Well, that just proofs that he is an idiot and should have done some reseach into the matter, before strapping on that dashing Uniform. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/195 "2010-10-23T23:34:35Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Well, that just proofs that he is an idiot and should have done some reseach into the matter, before strapping on that dashing Uniform. Our proofs were much harder back in geometry class. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845.md?page=9)