# You dumbasses ever heard of "historical re-enactment" or what? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 12, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845 "2010-10-12T01:04:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/81 "2010-10-12T18:20:45Z")
The statement on the website seals the deal, combined with the unit’s participation in war atrocities. Nazi wannabe, not a re-enactor. Hell with him AND his buddies. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/82 "2010-10-12T18:21:03Z")
[Even Hitler](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeU2t2gSOC8) doesn’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/83 "2010-10-12T18:33:25Z")
> [@ENugent](#): > > [Even Hitler](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeU2t2gSOC8) doesn’t like it. “Goebbels, update my Twitter.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/84 "2010-10-12T19:07:29Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > This is just retarded, ever heared about TV, Movies or Cinema? > > Do we procecute every actor for acting his or her part? > > Maybe the next time someone plays a serial killer in a movie, we put him onto the Green mile for real. And when the aliens kill all humans or extract some of us to another planet do do some Predetor’ing we send those aliens to prison for unlawfull behaviour. > > By the way, when I was a little boy I dressed up as an Indian or a Cowboy and we shot each other with fake guns, so lay the lay on me…:smack: Oh, SOMETHING’S retarded here… Read one of their mission statements: > [@](#): > > It is our aim to bring you a bit of actual history behind the men who fought against the “Bolshevik scourge”; volunteers who came from the various Northern European countries allied with Hitler’s Germany who only had a desire to see an end to Soviet Communism. As we do more research to bring you an accurate portrayal (and build the rest of this website!), you will see more and more content. We also have included histories of the Finnish and Norwegian Legions, and Leon Degrelle’s Walloon Brigade because of their close combat association with Division Wiking. Also included is a short history of Division Nordland, which owed its birth to Wiking as being formed from the Nordland Grenadier Regiment in 1943. We will in the future cover other foreign volunteers in the Waffen-SS and Heer (namely the Islamic Handshar, the Russian ROA, and the Spanish Blue Division) in the Other Volunteers section. This how they describe the Waffen-SS. Brave men who fought against the commies. Yeah, sure, they’re just “play acting.” Methinks you need to tweak the spelling of your name, just a bit. Because I don’t think it’s supposed to be _Dough_bag. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/85 "2010-10-12T19:32:15Z")
Honest question: how the hell does one justify the claim of historical accuracy while reenacting anything post-WWI? I get earlier conflicts, where you basically line people up and fire fake muskets at each other (I still don’t understand what “historical value” this has, since…we know how the battle unfolded, thus the reenactment). But do WWII reenactments just gloss over the tanks and bomber planes and heavy artillery? I kind of doubt it, so it just makes me wonder what the _point_ of all this is. Want to be a soldier? Join the military. Want to play at combat and being Mr. Macho? Go paintballing, where you can shoot people to your heart’s delight. Want to dress up in pretty costumes? Congratulations, you’re a seven-year-old girl. Grow up, or at least wait until Halloween. Don’t do it on the weekends and claim it’s for “historical value”. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/86 "2010-10-12T19:37:04Z")
> [@villa](#): > > The Waffen SS were war criminals. Every single (volunteer) member (apparently I was wrong and there was conscription into SS units later on). There was a lot of conscription into the SS, the Waffen SS had a peak strength of ~900,000. The Waffen SS is often thought of as elite units of blonde haired, blue eyed Aryans, but this wasn’t the case at all. Ironically formations were raised from Poles, Ukrainians, Russians and others who were Untermenschen in Nazi ideology. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS\_foreign\_volunteers\_and\_conscripts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts) > [@](#): > > Additionally, there were SS units and entire SS ‘Foreign Legions’ consisting primarily of American, Indian, Arabs, Tartars/Cossacks amongst others. In fact, there was even units, such as SS Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger that accepted persecuted peoples such as Homosexuals, Gypsies and political prisoners. **Ultimately, a significant majority (~60%) of men who volunteered and fought with the Waffen SS over the course of the war were not ethnic Germans.** The Waffen SS even made allowances for religious traditions and beliefs with specialised uniforms and insignias, as well as providing spiritual guidance and service in non-Christian religions. > > A non exhaustive estimate of the total of over 350,000 non-German volunteers in the Waffen SS and their units is shown below: The “crusade against Bolshevism” was a major propaganda selling point in drumming up recruits from occupied territories. That said a politician would have to be an idiot to think that dressing up as a member of the SS on the weekends would be a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/87 "2010-10-12T19:37:38Z")
Sad individuals. Soldiers in the British Army has coined a beautiful term - [Walt](http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Walts) - for those who like to dress up in uniform and pretend to be soldiers. And while they express some tolerance for re-enacting Walts (as compared to, say, those who buy uniforms and medals of ebay and wear them in public), there’s a certain hierarchy: > [@](#): > > The closer the chosen period to modern day, the more elite the unit, the more dictatorous the country, the bigger the walt. Thus a New Model Army pikeman is a smaller walt than a 95th Rifleman who is in turn a lesser walt than a WW2 Home Guard who is in turn a lesser walt than a Waffen SS who in turn is out-walted by a Vietnam War era Green Beret - who, in turn, is out-walted by a present day SAS-posing bank manager. Disturbingly Medieval up till Napoleonic types have access to swords, halberds, bows, crossbows, medieval siege equipment and an even more disturbing knowledge on how to use them. In their favour they drink like fish. However, picking the “Wiking Division” crosses from mildly pathetic to downright offensive. “Northern European countries allied with Hitler’s Germany” is apparently their specialized way of spelling “countries under Nazi occupation”. And they use a lot of verbiage to avoid the much shorter word for those who joined the armed forces of the country’s occupiers - it’s even historically relevant: Quislings. Seriously, not only do those asshats want to play-act at being Nazis, they push it one step further by playing at being Waffen-SS, and the crowning turd in the waterpipe is their decision to emulate a unit specifically formed to accommodate the traitors who saw their countries occupied and decided that throwing their lot in with the Nazis was just the ticket. I humbly suggest they “re-enact” their post-war return to their respective liberated countries with their tails between their legs. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/88 "2010-10-12T19:43:36Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > 1. We’re not talking about a production to be aired in mass-market; we’re talking about a group (with a website touting the SS) dressing up, taking pictures of themselves all nazied out, and playing bang bang in the back yard. Fucking please. [This](http://www.gossipjackal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Rich-Lott-242x300.jpg) is the photo that has caused all the hoopla. Lott is the guy in the SS uniform standing next to a guy in a [_Scottish_ uniform.](http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/3318275/Hulton-Archive) I’m pretty sure the Scots weren’t Nazis in WWII. To claim that the group only likes the nazis is absurd. They got one of the allies right there in the center of the photograph! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/89 "2010-10-12T19:49:46Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > It is our aim to bring you a bit of actual history behind the men who fought against the “Bolshevik scourge”; volunteers who came from the various Northern European countries allied with Hitler’s Germany who only had a desire to see an end to Soviet Communism. As we do more research to bring you an accurate portrayal (and build the rest of this website!), you will see more and more content. We also have included histories of the Finnish and Norwegian Legions, and Leon Degrelle’s Walloon Brigade because of their close combat association with Division Wiking. Also included is a short history of Division Nordland, which owed its birth to Wiking as being formed from the Nordland Grenadier Regiment in 1943. We will in the future cover other foreign volunteers in the Waffen-SS and Heer (namely the Islamic Handshar, the Russian ROA, and the Spanish Blue Division) in the Other Volunteers section. > > This how they describe the Waffen-SS. Brave men who fought against the commies. Yeah, sure, they’re just “play acting.” > > Methinks you need to tweak the spelling of your name, just a bit. Because I don’t think it’s supposed to be _Dough_bag. Funny, apparently historians hold different views about what was going on: > [@](#): > > The actual Wiking unit has a history as grisly as that of other Nazi divisions. In her book “The Death Marches of Hungarian Jews Through Austria in the Spring of 1945,” Eleonore Lappin, the noted Austrian historian, writes that soldiers from the Wiking division were involved in the killing of Hungarian Jews in March and April 1945, before surrendering to American forces in Austria. > > “What you often hear is that the [Wiking] division was never formally accused of anything, but that’s kind of a dodge,” says Prof. Rob Citino, of the Military History Center at the University of North Texas, who examined the Wiking website. “The entire German war effort in the East was a racial crusade to rid the world of ‘subhumans,’ Slavs were going to be enslaved in numbers of tens of millions. And of course the multimillion Jewish population of Eastern Europe was going to be exterminated altogether. That’s what all these folks were doing in the East. It sends a shiver up my spine to think that people want to dress up and play SS on the weekend.” But what the hell do historians know? They weren’t there, man! Re-enactors at least pretend they were there, so that’s, right there, a kind of… evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/90 "2010-10-12T19:55:31Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Fucking please. [This](http://www.gossipjackal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Rich-Lott-242x300.jpg) is the photo that has caused all the hoopla. Lott is the guy in the SS uniform standing next to a guy in a [_Scottish_ uniform.](http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/3318275/Hulton-Archive) I’m pretty sure the Scots weren’t Nazis in WWII. To claim that the group only likes the nazis is absurd. They got one of the allies right there in the center of the photograph! Someone has to play the indians. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/91 "2010-10-12T20:06:48Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > > [@silenus](#): > > > > Scary what can happen before the first cup of coffee kicks in, isn’t it? 😃 > > Maybe I should start drinking the stuff… 😃 That explains why you’ve been asleep since April 2001. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/92 "2010-10-12T20:07:24Z")
I hope you don’t think that I was defending the reenactors, **Johnny Angel**! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/93 "2010-10-12T20:08:56Z")
I know Civil War re-enactors, but none who play guards at Andersonville. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/94 "2010-10-12T20:25:58Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > > [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > > > Fucking please. [This](http://www.gossipjackal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Rich-Lott-242x300.jpg) is the photo that has caused all the hoopla. Lott is the guy in the SS uniform standing next to a guy in a [_Scottish_ uniform.](http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/3318275/Hulton-Archive) I’m pretty sure the Scots weren’t Nazis in WWII. To claim that the group only likes the nazis is absurd. They got one of the allies right there in the center of the photograph! > > Someone has to play the indians. The guy played BOTH SIDES. Got that? Is that a hard concept for people? He’s not some neo- nazi; he’s a history geek. This is from an article appearing in that most Hitleresque of publications: [The Huffington Post](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/11/rich-iott-nazi-uniform-gop_n_758380.html): “Iott said he has been involved in re-enactments on and off for roughly 35 years. He said he has dressed as an American soldier for World War I and World War II re-enactments, as well as a soldier from each side of the Civil War.” So he played both Nazis and Americans in WWII reenactments. Jesus people, I know critical thinking has waned a bit on this board, but the guy is NOT a nazi sympathizer. [Anderson Cooper 360](http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/11/evening-buzz-nazi-re-enactment-controversy/) even mentions that swasticas were banned from the attire. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/95 "2010-10-12T20:28:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I know Civil War re-enactors, but none who play guards at Andersonville. This. Cosplay is always kind of dorky unless you’re a smokin’-hot Japanese chick, but there’s a point where dorky gives way to skeevy. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/96 "2010-10-12T20:29:38Z")
Iott [digs himself deeper](http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/rich-iott-defends-nazis-he-dresses-up-as-they-were-doing-what-they-thought-was-right-video.php?ref=fpi), on video no less, during an interview with Anderson Cooper. > [@](#): > > Cooper also asked about the reenators’ website, which he said describes members of the Wiking unit as “valiant men.” He asked Iott if he believed these were “valiant men.” > > “I think that they thought they were fighting for their homeland,” Iott said. When pressed further, he replied: “I don’t think we can sit here and judge that today. We weren’t there the time they made those decisions.” Yyyyyeah… ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/97 "2010-10-12T20:32:34Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > There was a lot of conscription into the SS, the Waffen SS had a peak strength of ~900,000. The Waffen SS is often thought of as elite units of blonde haired, blue eyed Aryans, but this wasn’t the case at all. Ironically formations were raised from Poles, Ukrainians, Russians and others who were Untermenschen in Nazi ideology. Didn’t Wiking stay volunteer only? And as such 100% war criminal? Seems like they were still executing Jews in April 1945. Just the sort I want to re-enact. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/98 "2010-10-12T20:38:55Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > > > Someone has to play the indians. > > The guy played BOTH SIDES. Got that? Is that a hard concept for people? He’s not some neo- nazi; he’s a history geek. This is from an article appearing in that most Hitleresque of publications: [The Huffington Post](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/11/rich-iott-nazi-uniform-gop_n_758380.html): > > “Iott said he has been involved in re-enactments on and off for roughly 35 years. He said he has dressed as an American soldier for World War I and World War II re-enactments, as well as a soldier from each side of the Civil War.” > > So he played both Nazis and Americans in WWII reenactments. > > Jesus people, I know critical thinking has waned a bit on this board, but the guy is NOT a nazi sympathizer. [Anderson Cooper 360](http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/11/evening-buzz-nazi-re-enactment-controversy/) even mentions that swasticas were banned from the attire. Okay use you critical thinking, and figure out how his statements about the Wiking Division are anything other than a whitewashing of a gang of barbarians and a defense of treason committed by subdued Europeans. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/99 "2010-10-12T21:08:00Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Okay use you critical thinking, and figure out how his statements about the Wiking Division are anything other than a whitewashing of a gang of barbarians and a defense of treason committed by subdued Europeans. “I think that **they thought** they were fighting for their homeland” is a whitewashing? Did your mother get a pregnancy discount at the liquor store? Of course those nationalist bastards thought they were fighting for their homeland. That’s how nationalists think. It’s right there in the word. Do you believe the nazis thought they weren’t fighting for their Fatherland? ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/100 "2010-10-12T21:14:12Z")
What would have been _really_ troubling is if he pretended to help the Wiking Division find the nuclear wessles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845.md?page=6)