# You dumbasses ever heard of "historical re-enactment" or what? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 12, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845 "2010-10-12T01:04:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/161 "2010-10-15T10:09:05Z")
[Nuremberg Judgment](http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/judgment/j-accused-organisations-04-02.html) > [@](#): > > \*\*It is impossible to single out any one portion of the SS which was not involved in these criminal activities. The Allgemeine SS was an active participant in the persecution of the Jews and was used as a source of concentration camp guards. Units of the Waffen SS were directly involved in the killing of prisoners of war and the atrocities in occupied countries. It supplied personnel for the Einsatzgruppen, and had command over the concentration camp guards after its absorption of the Totenkopf SS, which originally controlled the system. Various SS Police units were also widely used in the atrocities in occupied countries and the extermination of the Jews there. The SS Central Organisation supervised the activities of these various formations and was responsible for such special projects as the human experiments and “final solution” of the Jewish question. > > The Tribunal finds that knowledge of these criminal activities was sufficiently general to justify declaring that the SS was a criminal organisation to the extent hereinafter described. It does appear that an attempt was made to keep secret some phases of its activities, but its criminal programs were so widespread, and involved slaughter on such a gigantic scale, that its criminal activities must have been widely known. It must be recognized, moreover that the criminal activities of the SS followed quite logically from the principles on which it was organized. Every effort had been made to make the SS a highly disciplined organisation composed of the elite of National Socialism.\*\* The SS were declared a criminal organisation. That’s all we need to know to condemn them and anyone who whitewashes them from participants in this thread to the ‘re-enactors’ and this individual frack-wit. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/162 "2010-10-15T10:17:15Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > I am not “whitewashing” anything, I’m challeging you childish view that anyone in an ss-uniform was either a campguard or a Mengele. Of course they weren’t, as the Waffen-SS was committing its war crimes at the front. I’m not going to bother to link to the POW massacres, civilian massacres, or genocidal massacres. They’re all in the historical record, and anyone who doesn’t know about them is being willfully ignorant. The Waffen-SS was declared a criminal orginazation, and its members were for decades denied veteran’s benefits by the German government. That also is in the historical record. I, for one, don’t give two shits if someone wants to dress up as Bill Anderson, Sepp Dietrich, or William Calley, but as soon as they start whitewashing those people’s bloody murderous hands, I’m going to call bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/163 "2010-10-15T12:53:04Z")
> [@anya\_marie](#): > > There’s a huge difference in a gown and tiara playing princess and claiming that the SS were defending their homeland. No shit. If a picture of Iott in a gown and tiara surfaced, the Tea Party/Republicans would ditch him in a hot second. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/164 "2010-10-15T13:34:28Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > I’ve got no clue That’s what I figured since so far you’ve done a terrific job of missing the point so far. Let’s see if you can miss it again: Rich Iott was part of a group that praises these SS volunteers as brave and valiant men who were fighting for freedom and ignores the fact that they killed civilians for fun. I wasn’t. (Much more minor difference: I don’t know if my costume was period accurate, but the Nazis in the play wore actual swastikas. Given the conditions, obviously nobody was worried we’d be mistaken for people who were looking at the positive attributes of the SS. ;)) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/165 "2010-10-15T13:41:41Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > As for wanting to re-enact Waffen-ss. > If you’re into military stuff, uniforms, guns, the german army of WWII really is the tits. > Have you ever seen the stuff? Not only is most of it technically waaaaay superior to what the western allies had, . Really? Because I would take an M1 over any of the bolt-actions rifles the majority of the rest of the world’s soldiers was using any day. I think a PPsh-41 looks cooler than any MP-40. The Germans seemed to think it worked better as well - they certainly used enough captured ones. The Germans did have better Machine Guns, at least until you got to the .50 Caliber US models. Tanks? They made some good ones, but why would that effect any decision as to what unit to join? The German WW2 reenactor units I have seen are lucky to get an Armored Car or halftrack running, forget getting a Panther or Tiger on the field. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/166 "2010-10-15T14:14:49Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Listen, you little snot. > You are loudly spouting an “opinion” on a subject you know nothing about. > Your remarks clearly show that you’re grasp on WWII is that of a 3rd grader. > Yet you blithely pass judgement. > > I am not “whitewashing” anything, I’m challeging you childish view that anyone in an ss-uniform was either a campguard or a Mengele. > > Maybe you should start reading up on the subject. Where did I say they were, idiot? Maybe a cite would be handy. I said they were a criminal organization. And they were. I said the volunteers were criminals. And they were. Yes I will pass judgment on them, and on those who seek to exonerate them today. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/167 "2010-10-15T18:25:13Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Fuck off you apologist asshole. This violates the language restrictions for the Pit. Please avoid such language in the future. No warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/168 "2010-10-15T18:44:44Z")
My apologies. I didn’t know - I knew fuck you was, but not fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/169 "2010-10-15T23:18:00Z")
> [@villa](#): > > My apologies. I didn’t know - I knew fuck you was, but not fuck off. You know I was totally with your on you attacks on the obvious obfuscating about the SS not REALLY being criminal commiters of atrocities, but then you go and do the same thing with “fuck you” and “fuck off” being not the same thing. Really. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/170 "2010-10-15T23:41:24Z")
**Evil Captor** I think they are exactly the same thing. I think the rules on language in the Pit are utterly stupid, but I do try to obey them given the fact I voluntarily post here. I’m not trying to make a case there is a difference in meaning between them. Just the rules are, to be honest, an ass. I thought I was within them, and, given that I wasn’t, I apologized and provided the reason I erroneously broke them. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/171 "2010-10-15T23:51:44Z")
> [@villa](#): > > **Evil Captor** > > I think they are exactly the same thing. I think the rules on language in the Pit are utterly stupid, but I do try to obey them given the fact I voluntarily post here. > > I’m not trying to make a case there is a difference in meaning between them. Just the rules are, to be honest, an ass. I thought I was within them, and, given that I wasn’t, I apologized and provided the reason I erroneously broke them. I’m pretty sure that you were being teased. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/172 "2010-10-15T23:56:15Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > > [@Latro](#): > > > > No, not all of the waffen-ss were elite fighting men, parts were involved in atrocities, some units were expressly raised for “anti- partisan” duties and filled with dreck, like Dirlewanger. > > > > Wiking was a highly regarded fighting division. > > However, a division is a LOT of people and undoubtedly some bad stuff was done by members of this division. > > The problem is the elite SS divisions committed a lot of major atrocities. No, not every member of the elite divisions committed a war crime, but a quick breakdown of some of them: > > 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler > > - Wormhoudt May 27/28, 1940, 100 British POWs murdered with hand grenades and machine guns > - Malmedy massacre, December 1944, 72 American POWs murdered. > > 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich > > - Tulle, Central France, June 8, 1944, 97 French civilians hung in retaliation for partisan attacks > - Oradour-sur-Glane, June 10, 1944 Village razed and 190 men, 247 women, and 205 children shot or burned alive in retaliation for the kidnapping of an SS Major by French partisans > > 3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf > > - May 26,1940 - Le Paradis, 97 prisoners from the Royal Norfolk Regiment machine gunned > - Various atrocities against Jews and others during the Polish campaign. Totenkopf (Death’s Head) actually _was_ raised from concentration camp guards > > 5th SS Panzer Division Wiking > > - already mentioned in this thread > > 12 SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend > > - April 2, 1944 - Ascq, 86 French civilians murdered in retaliation for sabotage to a rail line. > - June/July 1944 -Normandy, in 31 different incidents 134 Canadians, 3 British and 1 American prisoners are murdered > > The only SS Panzer Divisions not on this list are 9th Hohenstaufen and 10th Frundsberg. I think it needs to be remembered that the horrors of WWII’s Nazi atrocities doesn’t all fall on Nazi ideology. In the mind of turn of the century German generals partisans were [an unacceptable combat contingency.](http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Rape_of_Belgium) Prussian efficiency, control, is what wins wars and deviation from that is failure. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/173 "2010-10-15T23:56:29Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I’m not trying to make a case there is a difference in meaning between them. Just the rules are, to be honest, an ass. I thought I was within them, and, given that I wasn’t, I apologized and provided the reason I erroneously broke them. Suuuuure. That’s what the SS said at Nuremburg. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/174 "2010-10-16T00:24:33Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I think it needs to be remembered that the horrors of WWII’s Nazi atrocities doesn’t all fall on Nazi ideology. In what way does that defend the Waffen-SS? Somehow, despite some of its personnel having committed war crimes, the Wermacht was not declared a criminal organization following WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/175 "2010-10-16T20:59:35Z")
Oh God, I just found out my dad knows this guy. They were in the Ohio Militia together. Not a paramilitary bunch like the Michigan Militia, but more of a “Dad’s Army” outfit that helps out as they can (they directed traffic during the Dayton Accords.), likes to dress up like soldiers, sit around at the American Legion bar & drink beer, watch Fox News. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/176 "2010-10-16T21:50:44Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Oh God, I just found out my dad knows this guy. They were in the Ohio Militia together. Not a paramilitary bunch like the Michigan Militia, but more of a “Dad’s Army” outfit that helps out as they can (they directed traffic during the Dayton Accords.), likes to dress up like soldiers, sit around at the American Legion bar & drink beer, watch Fox News. Well? Anything else? Spill! ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/177 "2010-10-16T22:00:54Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > > [@Sitnam](#): > > > > I think it needs to be remembered that the horrors of WWII’s Nazi atrocities doesn’t all fall on Nazi ideology. > > In what way does that defend the Waffen-SS? > > Somehow, despite some of its personnel having committed war crimes, the Wermacht was not declared a criminal organization following WWII. Well, it’s clear that the ss would have to go, after the war. After all it was a political institution and definately criminal. Somehow excluding the Waffen-ss would have been impossible. Quite a few _had_ commited war-crimes and there was intermingling from personell guilty of taking part in the holocaust. Seperating those from the ones that were genuinely just soldiers would have been an enormous undertaking. So they got thrown in with the bunch. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/178 "2010-10-17T05:45:23Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > > [@Sitnam](#): > > > > I think it needs to be remembered that the horrors of WWII’s Nazi atrocities doesn’t all fall on Nazi ideology. > > In what way does that defend the Waffen-SS? It doesn’t and shouldn’t. I wanted to point out this particular barbarisim is not confined to Nazi ideology and had history within the German army 20 year before. And not in just a kind of ‘unless we learn from history we’re doomed to repeat it’ kind of way but in a very real belief that _this_ was how you win and that alone makes it ok. > [@Frank](#): > > Somehow, despite some of its personnel having committed war crimes, the Wermacht was not declared a criminal organization following WWII. Committing atrocities is hard on conscripted morale, better to let the resolute do it. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/179 "2010-10-17T07:52:13Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I wanted to point out this particular barbarisim is not confined to Nazi ideology and had history within the German army 20 year before. And not in just a kind of ‘unless we learn from history we’re doomed to repeat it’ kind of way but in a very real belief that _this_ was how you win and that alone makes it ok. It certainly is a very real belief, but it’s not very successful in practice. The surest way to stiffen an enemy’s resolve to fight to the very bitter end even when faced with an untenable situation rather than surrender is to execute prisoners. Atrocities also lead to counter-atrocities and the fighting just becomes more brutal. For instance, after finding the bodies of prisoners murdered by the Hitlerjugend in Normandy the Canadians by and large simply stopped taking SS prisoners; any attempt to surrender on the battlefield was likely to be met with a bullet or the end of a bayonet. > [@](#): > > Committing atrocities is hard on conscripted morale, better to let the resolute do it. Yes and no. For example from [here](http://books.google.com/books?id=ykyPnalO5twC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=SS+panzer+division+atrocities&source=bl&ots=MlRm5U_QsW&sig=csQsY6RYtM3kB39iYgWeVhtXrtY&hl=en&ei=1Je3TJ-5BIaBlAfG-J2JCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CC4Q6AEwBjge#v=onepage&q=SS%20panzer%20division%20atrocities&f=false) on the massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane by the 2nd SS Das Reich > [@](#): > > Some 15 of the key participants in the massacre, including _Unterscharfuhrer_ Boos, were the Division’s Alsatian troops who had been conscripted against their will in 1943. By 1944 these recent Alsatian conscripts were fully assimilated into its sectional primary groups, and were keen to prove their loyalty to their section comrades by being even more robust against Germany’s enemies than their ideologically motivated peers. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/180 "2010-10-19T10:54:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s what I figured since so far you’ve done a terrific job of missing the point so far. Let’s see if you can miss it again: Rich Iott was part of a group that praises these SS volunteers as brave and valiant men who were fighting for freedom and ignores the fact that they killed civilians for fun. I wasn’t. (Much more minor difference: I don’t know if my costume was period accurate, but the Nazis in the play wore actual swastikas. Given the conditions, obviously nobody was worried we’d be mistaken for people who were looking at the positive attributes of the SS. ;)) Lott did not glorify the SS in his statements and I don’t think, you will find any - that is the official line anyhow. So for all intent and purpose, he was just re-enacting. Now, that does not take from the fact, that it was a very stupid choice of costumes. But when those re-enactment folks do South and North, well do these Southler still believe in slavery or just trying to have some fun. Also, this would be the first time, that I heared of the US is forbidding people to have certain believes/choice of clothing etc, however retared these believes might be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845.md?page=10)