You dumbasses ever heard of "historical re-enactment" or what?

[villa]

Of course he then said:

I don’t think we can sit here and judge that today.

I can. I can judge anyone who volunteered to join the SS from occupied Europe quite easily.

Wiking was a volunteer unit made up of non-Germans. So whether the nazis thought they were fighting for their Fatherland is not really relevant.

[BrainGlutton]

I know what let’s do! Let’s re-enact the Spanish Inquisition!

[Guinastasia]

@A Monkey With a Gun

The guy played BOTH SIDES. Got that? Is that a hard concept for people?

Too bad his side white-washes the bad guys:

Regardless, thousands upon thousands of valiant men died defending their respective countries in the name of a better tomorrow. No matter how unsavory the Nazi government was, the front-line soldiers of the Waffen-SS (in particular the foreign volunteers) gave their lives for their loved ones and a basic desire to be free.

I don’t know how Mengele’s experiments helped towards this, but that apparently was their goal. :rolleyes:

It’d be one thing if they were just reenactors. But they’re basically making them out to be “just a bunch of good people fighting for the wrong cause, and wanting to be free!”

Ugh.

(And looking at the Wiki entry on Andersonville – the picture of a survivor looked even worse than any photo of a Holocaust victim!!! How is that even POSSIBLE!) :eek:

[marshmallow]

There’s nothing wrong with dressing up as a Nazi.

There’s also nothing wrong with cross dressing. Not a good idea in either case if you have political aspirations, though.

[BrainGlutton]

@Guinastasia

(And looking at the Wiki entry on Andersonville – the picture of a survivor looked even worse than any photo of a Holocaust victim!!! How is that even POSSIBLE!) :eek:

Because the Confederacy’s industrial and transportation infrastructure were so underdeveloped that they could barely supply their own troops in the field, let alone feed POWs. At least the prisoners at Andersonville were prisoners – because they were white; the Cornfeds shot out of hand any black Union soldiers who tried to surrender.

[Guinastasia]

@marshmallow

There’s nothing wrong with dressing up as a Nazi.

There’s also nothing wrong with cross dressing. Not a good idea in either case if you have political aspirations, though.

As much as I LOATHE them, I found it amusing when one of the Freepers described this guy as an “Iron Cross-dresser”.

[silenus]

@BrainGlutton

I know what let’s do! Let’s re-enact the Spanish Inquisition!

I don’t know…don’t you think everybody will be expecting that?

[Johnny_Angel]

@Guinastasia

I hope you don’t think that I was defending the reenactors, Johnny Angel!

The way you talk, it seems like you want the re-enactors to win. Prove you don’t!

@A Monkey With a Gun

Of course those nationalist bastards thought they were fighting for their homeland. That’s how nationalists think. It’s right there in the word. Do you believe the nazis thought they weren’t fighting for their Fatherland?

Indeed. It’s hard to entirely dismiss the context of their valor. Recall how much shit Susan Sontag got for writing after 9/11, “In the matter of courage (a morally neutral virtue): whatever may be said of the perpetrators of Tuesday’s slaughter, they were not cowards.” I agree with her – not everything courageous is to be celebrated. The content of the ideals, and the actions performed in service of them, are not a trivial consideration.

[Gangster_Octopus]

Who wants to join me for my Black Plague re-enactment. I’ll supply the rats, if everybody else can bring the feces. it will be educational.

[Dissonance]

@villa

@Dissonance

There was a lot of conscription into the SS, the Waffen SS had a peak strength of ~900,000. The Waffen SS is often thought of as elite units of blonde haired, blue eyed Aryans, but this wasn’t the case at all. Ironically formations were raised from Poles, Ukrainians, Russians and others who were Untermenschen in Nazi ideology.

Didn’t Wiking stay volunteer only?

Probably; Wiking was about 60% German and 40% foreign volunteers. The foreign volunteers drawn from ‘Nordic’ countries probably remained all volunteer, but it’s hard to say where all of its replacements came from during the war. It wouldn’t surprise me if some were drafted.

And as such 100% war criminal?

Well, 100% members of an organization the IMT deemed to be a criminal organization. I’m not trying to defend Iott or the SS, or the character of those who would betray their country and volunteer to join the SS, but the Waffen SS was very different from what it is commonly perceived to have been. Himmler wanted to expand his personal empire within Nazi Germany, and one way of doing this was for the SS to control foreign volunteer units.

[kidneyfailure]

@Gangster_Octopus

First, why in the world anyone wouuld even WANT to play act as a Nazi is pretty much beyond my comprehension.

Again, the bad guys existed. Just because we don’t like them doesn’t mean we should just ignore their place in history. I mean, as a former re-enactor, it would be pretty stupid to re-enact scenes (not just battles, of course) from WW2 without Nazis or Italian and Japanese fascists. These people existed, even the SS, and thus secured a place, however horrible, in history. We can’t sweep them under the rug just because we don’t like what happened.

What would I think of a re-enactment of Andersonville or Auschwitz? Well, if it were an attempt to present a historically-accurate “living history” portrayal of what went on it that time period at those particular places I would support it. I might even take part in it (yes, perhaps even as a Nazi). If it were being recreated to espouse or spread Neo-Nazi ideology, to demonize the victims and glorify the war criminals, to support a particular racial ideology instead of historical accuracy, it and everyone involved in it could kiss my ass.

Is that what’s going on here? I don’t know. They come pretty close to sounding like neo-Nazi dumbasses with that whole, “brave warriors fighting for their homeland” thing, but they also seem pretty clear in their denunciation of racism and Nazi ideology. Is this guy a Nazi? Probably not. A dumbass who is confusing the experience of rank-and-file German soldiers with the war crimes of SS volunteers and making a douche of himself? Yes. An idiot who should have known that his political opponents would use this against? Absolutely.

[wonky]

@A Monkey With a Gun

Anderson Cooper 360 even mentions that swasticas were banned from the attire.

If I remember correctly, and I may not, “nigger” is banned at Stormfront.

[Zebra]

How do you re-enact WWII in Ohio? Do you build a tank or ration sugar or plant a victory garden?
IANAWWII Historian but I’m pretty sure there were no battles in Ohio.

[Measure_for_Measure]

Why yes, being an apologist for the Waffen SS does strike me as loony stuff. Here’s a blog post from a war reenactor who isn’t buying Iott’s story:

When I’m portraying whatever I’m portraying, accuracy isn’t just wearing the right clothes or starting a fire without matches or getting the order right when loading a musket. It’s also showing the opinions and attitudes of the time, and whether modern-day me agrees or not is beside the point. So when I’m in early 19th century America, I’ll be perfectly OK with slavery, explaining that it’s just always been there and I’ve never thought about it. I won’t, however, be putting up a web site where I describe the group as portraying the lives of brave whites who defended freedom by preventing slave rebellions: but that’s the sort of thing Iott’s Nazi group did.

Account Suspended and:

@ericf

So when Iott and his idiots make reenactors a laughing stock or an object of suspicion, they undo many of the efforts of the people who march in summer heat in wool clothes so the public can see what soldiers in some earlier time actually did. …While most of us try to talk about the hard work, the sicknesses of camp, the lousy pay if your pay comes, being far from home with few prospects if you get back, this tea partier and his weird pals want to make the Nazis sound like good guys.

Ok, so a blogging war reenactor thinks Rich Iott is a creep. Josh Marshall continues:

Rich Iott’s latest line on the Waffen SS unit he reenacts: “I don’t think we can sit here and judge” them.

Really? SS units on the Eastern front? I’ll sign up to judge them.

Just for the record it’s worth noting that there’s a significant taxonomy of Nazi Germany’s soldiery. First you have men serving in the German regular army, the Wehrmacht. Then there were militarized SS formations, actually part of the Nazi party, the Waffen SS. Then there was duty on the Eastern front, where the Nazis followed a much more barbaric approach to war than they did on the Western front - and where casualties were vastly higher on both sides. Then on top of all that there were the Waffen SS divisions recruited from non-German volunteers. That’s the category of the ‘Wiking’ division Rich Iott is into. So these were the folks who weren’t conscripted and weren’t even German but thought the whole National Socialism thing was such a great idea that they signed up voluntarily, as even sub-German master race junior partners. (The recruits for Wiking were from Scandinavia, the Netherlands and the Baltics.) I mean, that’s dedication!

In any war and in any army you’re going to find a range of people, behaviors and beliefs, but if you’re looking for a part of the World War II German war machine to rehabilitate the ordinary soldiers, this is not where you’d start. To put it mildly.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/10/annals_of_bad_lines_of_defense.php?ref=fpblg

[kidchameleon]

@Zebra

How do you re-enact WWII in Ohio? Do you build a tank or ration sugar or plant a victory garden?
IANAWWII Historian but I’m pretty sure there were no battles in Ohio.

Heck, when was the last battle in Ohio? The French and Indian War?

[MrDibble]

@Walker_in_Eternity

There were many conscripts in the German army and even officers who did not support the Nazi party, but they had to fight.

No, they didn’t.

[MrDibble]

@NinjaChick

Want to dress up in pretty costumes? Congratulations, you’re a seven-year-old girl. Grow up, or at least wait until Halloween. Don’t do it on the weekends and claim it’s for “historical value”.

:rolleyes: No, you grow up, stupid bitch. Just because you can’t see the fun in dressing up, doesn’t mean other grownups can’t.

[Nava]

@villa

Doughbag - seriously, what would you think of a person who spent his weekends re-enacting Auschwitz? Do you not think that indicates something about a person’s mindset that bears on their capability to hold public office?

Eh, it isn’t battles, but Spanish “Medieval Markets” often involve some plays, which may involve a torturer or an executioner; some stories can’t be told without that particular bad guy. Reenactments in historical locations (“visit the castle and see how people lived” type things) do again involve people with jobs which were considered as disagreeable back then as today. Being willing to play the bad guy isn’t the same thing as wanting to, and neither one is the same thing as thinking he’s the good guy.

If Alan Rickman ever ran for office, would having played King John or whasisname in Die Hard be the biggest scores against him? Really? Is being paid for it what makes it valid?

[Walker_in_Eternity]

@MrDibble

@Walker_in_Eternity

There were many conscripts in the German army and even officers who did not support the Nazi party, but they had to fight.

No, they didn’t.

True, but that left few choices, either leave Germany until the war was over and possible never return, refuse to fight or join the German Resistance.

So while they could refuse to fight, the Nazis were not exactly known for being forgiving and tolerant of this kind of behaviour.

As can be seen from the resistance link, not all Germans suported Hitler and some tried to work against him.

[Martini_Enfield]

@BrainGlutton

I know what let’s do! Let’s re-enact the Spanish Inquisition!

I hear it’s quite a show.

As for the brouhaha in the OP: I’m surprised by the uproar. Historical re-enactment has a long history and the reality is that someone has to be the bad guy. Personally, I wouldn’t want to re-enact WWII German anything, but lots of people do and they’re no more Nazis than I am a [del]tomb raider[/del] archaeologist-adventurer because I have a fedora and a leather jacket.

Of course, he probably should have known that his political opponents would try and twist his re-enactment interests into accusations of Nazism, but I’m sure that if there were photographs of him in a Zulu War uniform someone would be accusing him of wanting to oppress black people, having loyalties to England, or both.