# You either get to call everyone you don't like a nazi... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305 "2017-08-21T19:45:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/61 "2017-09-03T18:52:24Z")
I do like me some XKCD! mc ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/62 "2017-09-03T19:39:08Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > And If you really fear nazis and klan members then you should be encouraging them to speak up **more** and participate\*\* more\*\* in public discourse. Because right now actions to silence these groups give them a certain cache; than can say “if we weren’t right, those evil lefty libs wouldn’t be trying to silence us” Well, this shows that you are are an ignorant of what I have said in the past, in the past I have pointed out that **indeed it is thanks to them participating that then we are aware** of **who** are the dupes of today. And it is funny to me how the never ending efforts from conservatives of today to undermine unions and worker rights is one reason that we have now business owners that can fire the asses of the ones that are nazi or racist assholes today, as XKCD puts it. So, the more the better so as to deal properly with those extremists because it is looking as if conservatives today are not minding getting support of deplorables like those ones. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/63 "2017-09-03T19:57:25Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > And If you really fear nazis and klan members then you should be encouraging them to speak up **more** and participate\*\* more\*\* in public discourse. Because right now actions to silence these groups give them a certain cache; than can say “if we weren’t right, those evil lefty libs wouldn’t be trying to silence us” Of course I have to notice that what I pointed early does stand: many conservatives here do willfully forget that we are having this conversation because Nazi’s, fascists and white supremacists are silencing people that opposed to them when Nazis shoot at them or run over them. As you say, we indeed know now (if one knows history, one already knows) what the fascists will do if they are allowed to gain power. With their actions we already do know who they are trying to silence. We have also the issue that right now they have a sympathizer in chief in the White House. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/64 "2017-09-03T21:17:24Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > 1. The Nazi’s, fascists, white supremacists crossed a line there that negated any free speech considerations. That line can only be crossed when someone moves from speech to action, and that action should be dealt with according to the law. > [@](#): > > 1. It is indeed crucial for anyone that is just defending Nazi’s, fascists and white supremacists **just** for free speech reasons to also use their free speech to leave the point that indeed killing people to stop the free speech of people that denounce fascists and white supremacists should not be tolerated. And as me and many others have done in the past: it is indeed crucial for many moderates and conservatives that do believe in the American way to tell them, even at the risk of losing their friendship, that fascist or white supremacy ideas should not be considered. The thing is, no-one here is defending those beliefs, and many people are attacking them. There’s no reason to add “me too” to every post that does so. I’ve made it clear, repeatedly, that I don’t share those despicable views - and it’s precisely because I reject fascist views that I think freedom of speech is so important, as is settling things in court not through violence. > [@](#): > > That is because while we are discussing this one of my biggest fears of electing Trump is happening: many conservatives are giving too much oxygen to the Nazi’s, fascists and white supremacists. It’s worth remembering that Trump voters make up something less than a quarter of Americans, and I suspect his hardcore supporters are less than half of that. The Dems threw away the election by putting up the second-worst candidate that I can remember seeing in an election where a swing to the right was always expected. As is often the case, a poor campaign mixed with political apathy led to a terrible result. However, Trump and the Republicans won a legitimate election, no matter how much that sucks. They are not revolutionaries nor dictators, they are working within the system. Nazis don’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/65 "2017-09-03T21:33:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s worth remembering that Trump voters make up something less than a quarter of Americans, and I suspect his hardcore supporters are less than half of that. The Dems threw away the election by putting up the second-worst candidate that I can remember seeing in an election where a swing to the right was always expected. As is often the case, a poor campaign mixed with political apathy led to a terrible result. > > However, Trump and the Republicans won a legitimate election, no matter how much that sucks. They are not revolutionaries nor dictators, they are working within the system. Nazis don’t do that. More than a reason then to stop giving them oxygen. As noted, more republicans are swallowing the idea that the media is more dangerous than the white supremacists, Hillary is not the president so she is irrelevant now, and we have to deal with the Cheeto in chief. Deal. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/66 "2017-09-03T21:37:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That line can only be crossed when someone moves from speech to action, and that action should be dealt with according to the law. > … > The thing is, no-one here is defending those beliefs, and many people are attacking them. The line was already crossed. Attacking them verbally and in the media and in the courts, is completely proper. Attacking them physically when they are in the process of physically attacking someone else (defending their victims) is completely appropriate too. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/67 "2017-09-03T21:42:08Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > The line was already crossed. Attacking them verbally and in the media and in the courts, is completely proper. Attacking them physically when they are in the process of physically attacking someone else (defending their victims) is completely appropriate too. If you want to take that argument to say that they no longer have the right to free speech because some members are violent, then you also need to apply it to all the other groups that have violent members, whether it’s pro-life protesters or BLM. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/68 "2017-09-03T22:17:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If you want to take that argument to say that they no longer have the right to free speech because some members are violent, then you also need to apply it to all the other groups that have violent members, whether it’s pro-life protesters or BLM. Fuck that, you “both sides many fine people” Nazi sympathizer son of a bitch. Only the ONE collective group has MURDERED anyone, so go fuck right off. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/69 "2017-09-03T22:38:46Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Fuck that, you “both sides many fine people” Nazi sympathizer son of a bitch. > > Only the ONE collective group has MURDERED anyone, so go fuck right off. Hahahaha no. Left wing revolutionaries have killed more people than the Nazis ever did, you fucking moron. And that group includes the BLM “protester” who shot 5 cops - that’s 4 more people than were killed by the white supremacists at that protest, for anyone keeping count. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/70 "2017-09-03T22:55:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Hahahaha no. Left wing revolutionaries have killed more people than the Nazis ever did, you fucking moron. We are talking about what is happening in America. And what you said here does brand you a red herring moron. > [@Steophan](#): > > And that group includes the BLM “protester” who shot 5 cops - that’s 4 more people than were killed by the white supremacists at that protest, for anyone keeping count. The news reported that Johnson had no connection to any extremist groups. By contrast recent recordings/transcripts showed that the Nazis were geared to cause harm as a group. > **[Alt-Right Chat Logs Are Key to Charlottesville Lawsuits](https://www.wired.com/story/leaked-alt-right-chat-logs-are-key-to-charlottesville-lawsuits/)** > > Leaked documents describe weapons and cite potential "gunfight." > [@](#): > > Transcripts show participants openly planning violence while organizers instruct them to obey the law. Participants on one call debated when it would be permissible to use riot shields as weapons. “Some screaming little Latina bitch comes at you and knocks your teeth on your riot shield, that means you hit her, and you’re going to get in trouble for the weapons,” one participant says. > [@](#): > > Mosley says he is careful to hew to the Supreme Court’s ruling in Brandenburg vs. Ohio, a landmark 1968 case that said the government cannot punish even hateful speech unless it incites “imminent lawless action.” Allen Lichtenstein, a former lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union of Nevada, says the ensuing violence would have to happen “more or less immediately.” Mosley says his political opponents get hysterical over the “dark humor” of the alt-right. “The idea that little tractor meme is somehow a call to run people over is ridiculous,” he says. In a courtroom, however, judges or juries may take a different view of such statements. > > Litzenburg, the lawyer for the women injured at the protest, says the organizers’ warnings against violence may not protect them legally. “Saying ‘y’all be good now wink wink’ I don’t think washes your hands of violence in this case,” he says. Potential claims by organizers that they acted in self-defense could be undercut by chatroom transcripts that show they were “waiting and hoping for [an action] that will justifiably trigger a violent response,” says Jeffrey Douglas, a board member of the ACLU Foundation of Southern California. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/71 "2017-12-04T20:51:19Z")
**Budget Player Cadet** To be clear - I’m not calling **zoid** or **Donald** or **random Conservatives** or anyone else, Nazis, because “I don’t like them”. This is not about my personal feelings - although admittedly I do not go to any effort to hide my feelings about Nazis. And why should I, or any other, red-blooded American girl? This is an objective assessment of Donald’s Nazi behavior and his Conservative supporters defending his Nazism. My point in reminding **zoid** that the definition for “anyone (even someone who claims to be a “fellow liberal”) who expresses sympathy for Nazis,” is, “Nazi sympathizer”, well, … seems sort of obvious to me. Your attempt to reduce to this to a unimportant personal opinion, as if we were debating butterscotch ice cream (Gross. Come at me.) is duly noted. I would certainly be pleased to punch a Nazi, but there don’t seem to be any in my computer room at the moment. I pride myself on maintaining a Nazi-free home. It’s just me and my elderly poodle-mix, and man, you wouldn’t want to know what _he_ calls Donald. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/72 "2017-12-05T01:12:10Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > And this is where you and the rest of your “of course they must be nazi sympathiser” despicable friends go off the rails. These can be and often are two separate discussions! > > If I, or anyone, defend the the absolute right to free speech (and yes I mean ABSOLUTE) for everyone and even if I say that everyone includes such despicable groups as nazis, klan members, and even GIGObusters I am under NO OBLIGATION to express my own views on whether or not this speech is approriate. If you can’t separate someones views about whether or not free speech includes hate speech, from whether they endorse WHAT’S IN that speech then that’s your problem and not anyone else’s! > > mc You are correct that there is no such obligation. However, the default is always that you support the people you are defending. And adding a bit saying you don’t agree with them is extremely easy, and avoids misunderstandings. Sure, maybe you don’t do so at first. You assume everyone knows you hate Nazis. Fine. But then you are specifically accused of agreeing with Nazis. If you, at that point, refuse to disavow them, then what other reason can there be? What’s more, the longer it takes you to disavow them, the worse it looks. It’s best to do it as early as you can. It’s better to not be misunderstood in the first place than to have to try and fix things after the fact. Another thing about people: once they decide something, that thought has inertia. It’s harder to come back from being thought to be a Nazi than to make it clear you aren’t one from the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/73 "2017-12-05T09:41:34Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > **Budget Player Cadet** > > To be clear - I’m not calling **zoid** or **Donald** or **random Conservatives** or anyone else, Nazis, because “I don’t like them”. This is not about my personal feelings - although admittedly I do not go to any effort to hide my feelings about Nazis. And why should I, or any other, red-blooded American girl? > > This is an objective assessment of Donald’s Nazi behavior and his Conservative supporters defending his Nazism. Define “Nazi”. My whole point here is, we can either treat the group as universally worth our scorn and worth denying basic rights, _or_ we can have a loose, vague, unclear definition that apparently includes some _half the fucking country_. We can’t have both. Like, the guy in that NYTimes piece who identifies as a Nazi? He’s a Nazi. You can tell because he supports ethnic cleansing and fascism, and also calls himself a Nazi. Richard Spencer? A little tougher of a call, but as a fascist who supports ethnic cleansing, yeah, sure, he’s a Nazi. Donald Trump? Debatably a fan of fascism, and I’ve seen no indication of him being into ethnic cleansing, and very little indication that he’s even particularly more racist than much of his demographic. In what universe does he count as a nazi? Milo Yiannopolous? He’s literally a gay Jew! He’s an _asshole_, and he holds a bunch of regressive, harmful, stupid beliefs and spouts them in particularly offensive ways, but anyone calling a _gay Jew_ a Nazi needs a new term or a fucking reality check. > [@](#): > > My point in reminding **zoid** that the definition for “anyone (even someone who claims to be a “fellow liberal”) who expresses sympathy for Nazis,” is, “Nazi sympathizer”, well, … seems sort of obvious to me. I think that in denying certain fringe groups basic rights, we cede the high ground, admit that we cannot beat them on an even playing field, and leave ourselves open to the same tactic being used against us _and_ to the inevitable blowback when we go too far and someone seems sympathetic. (Did the Berkeley riots help or hurt Milo Yiannopolous’s social cachet?) Does the above paragraph make me a Nazi sympathizer? > [@](#): > > Your attempt to reduce to this to a unimportant personal opinion, as if we were debating butterscotch ice cream (Gross. Come at me.) is duly noted. I think one of us is misunderstanding the other, because I have no idea what you’re talking about here. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/74 "2017-12-05T17:00:13Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Milo Yiannopolous? He’s literally a gay Jew! He’s an _asshole_, and he holds a bunch of regressive, harmful, stupid beliefs and spouts them in particularly offensive ways, but anyone calling a _gay Jew_ a Nazi needs a new term or a fucking reality check. Self-hating gays exist, as do anti-Semitic self-hating Jews. Stands to reason that anti-Semitic self-hating gay Jews also exist. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/75 "2017-12-06T02:41:59Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Define “Nazi”. A Nazi is a person who supports the goals, actions and beliefs of the Nazi Party, including, but not limited to: - Ahistoric ideas about Aryans and Indo-Europeans - Unsupported beliefs in the superiority of the White Race - Unsupported beliefs in the existence of the white race in any sort of meaningful biological way - Irrational and unscientific ideas about the inferiority of other ethnicities and sexualities - Support for segregation, discrimination & wholesale destruction of other ethnicities & sexualities - Perpetuation of Nazi-era slogans (Blood & Soil) or accoutrements (Swastikas) - Reverence for the historical leaders of the Nazi party - Willingness to commit violence in support of any of the above stupidity - Willingness to defend and support those who commit violence in support of the above stupidity - Refusal to condemn violence in support of Nazis and Nazism - Endless sealioning about ethics in anti-Nazi journalism and “What even is a Nazi, really?” That last one is you, **Budget**. That’s what **I** am talking about here. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > My whole point here is, we can either treat the group as universally worth our scorn and worth denying basic rights, _or_ we can have a loose, vague, unclear definition that apparently includes some _half the fucking country_. We can’t have both. The only person saying that we have both is _you_ - and it’s only true if you’re under the impression that those of us who call Donald and his supporters Nazis, are using “Nazis” as a synonym for, “Bad Hombres”. Again, I think that’s just you, dude, and I think you’re saying it’s vague because you don’t want to have to stop sympathizing with people who act like Nazis in public. FTR - I don’t have a vague, unclear definition of Nazism. It’s actually not that hard to spot a Nazi. Let’s play a few rounds! > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Like, the guy in that NYTimes piece who identifies as a Nazi? He’s a Nazi. You can tell because he supports ethnic cleansing and fascism, and also calls himself a Nazi. See! This isn’t so hard! > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Richard Spencer? A little tougher of a call, but as a fascist who supports ethnic cleansing, yeah, sure, he’s a Nazi. What is so tough about this one? Dude supports Nazi beliefs = Dude is a Nazi. It’s really not complicated. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Donald Trump? Debatably a fan of fascism, and I’ve seen no indication of him being into ethnic cleansing, and very little indication that he’s even particularly more racist than much of his demographic. In what universe does he count as a nazi? Same rule as with Richard Spenser: Dude supports Nazi beliefs = Dude is a Nazi. Using my definition I established above, Donald trips on: - Irrational and unscientific ideas about the inferiority of other ethnicities and sexualities - Support for segregation, discrimination & wholesale destruction of other ethnicities & sexualities - Perpetuation of Nazi-era slogans (Blood & Soil) or accoutrements (Swastikas) - Willingness to defend and support those who commit violence in support of the above stupidity - Refusal to condemn violence in support of Nazis and Nazism Additionally, Donald’s repeated retweets of stuff from hate sites on the internet make it crystal clear where his interests lie. Sure, he lies, and plays dumb about it, but everyone who wants to can pick up what he’s laying down. (We’re skipping lightly past the question of whether Donald is “particularly more racist than much of his demographic.” A person’s Naziness is not judged on how much more or less other people are Nazis. I will only note that if a man is judged by the company he keeps, Donald should stop hanging out with Stephan Miller and Sebastian Gorka.) > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Milo Yiannopolous? He’s literally a gay Jew! He’s an _asshole_, and he holds a bunch of regressive, harmful, stupid beliefs and spouts them in particularly offensive ways, but anyone calling a _gay Jew_ a Nazi needs a new term or a fucking reality check. Ah. Hm. Yeah. How to put this delicately. Apparently you’re not aware that there were quite a number of Jews who actually helped the Nazis. They hoped that their assimilation into the dominant German culture would protect them and win them official acceptance. It did not … although initially the Nazi party was happy to exploit them in rounding up non-cooperating Jews and stealing their property. There’s a list of some of these collaborationist groups, including the Judenrat and the so-called Jewish Gestapo (Group 13) here - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish\_Nazi\_collaboration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_Nazi_collaboration) And here’s a list of some of the notable Jewish collaborators - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish\_Nazi\_collaborators](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_Nazi_collaborators) including Calel Perechodnik, a member of the Jewish Gestapo - > **[Calel Perechodnik](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calel_Perechodnik)** > > Calel (Calek) Perechodnik (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}Polish: \['Tsaˈlɛl Pɛˈrɛxɔdnik\]; 8 September 1916 – October 1944) was a diarist who joined the Jewish Ghetto Police in the Otwock Ghetto during the Nazi German occupation of Poland. His wartime diaries were published posthumously as Am I a Murderer? (Polish: Czy ja jestem mo... All of this to say - Milo being Jewish and/or Gay doesn’t mean that he can’t a Nazi. The Jewish collaborators (who were, admittedly, in a nightmare situation) were motivated by fear, self-loathing and self-interest. Many of them were openly anti-semitic, either before or after their experiences. I’m not going to track it down right now, but I’ve certainly heard enough of Milo’s chatter to have heard him speak of his self-loathing and homophobia. He says that being gay is abnormal, that he wishes he could cure himself, that gay men should go back in the closet because it’s bad for society to have gay relationships and gay households, that lesbians are just confused straight women. Granted - it’s possible that Milo is just an amoral sociopath, saying whatever keeps Daddy Trump and his fans happy because the pay is good. I’ve read enough of that too, from people who know him personally. That doesn’t absolve him of being a Nazi. Oh yeah, Milo’s either a Nazi or a sociopath, or both, because he trips point number 4 & 5 in my definition: - Irrational and unscientific ideas about the inferiority of other ethnicities and sexualities - Support for segregation, discrimination and/or wholesale destruction of other ethnicities & sexualities > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I think that in denying certain fringe groups basic rights, we cede the high ground, admit that we cannot beat them on an even playing field, and leave ourselves open to the same tactic being used against us _and_ to the inevitable blowback when we go too far and someone seems sympathetic. (Did the Berkeley riots help or hurt Milo Yiannopolous’s social cachet?) > > Does the above paragraph make me a Nazi sympathizer? No, not when you’re talking about “What is an appropriate tactic to employ when one encounters a Nazi”. It’s when you dismiss the idea that there are actual Nazis operating openly and insist that we have no reasons for calling people Nazis, and try to defend the nazis - that’s an expression of Nazi sypmpathy. Since you asked - Milo Yiannopolous has no social cachet to speak of. His “Free Speech Week” was a joke that became a “Free Speech Weekend” and then a “Free Speech Rally” and then finally a “Free Speech Photo-op”. All of his God Emperor’s friends stood him up. He was wildly outnumbered by the anti-hate protestors exercising _their_ freedom of speech. He stuck Berkeley with an $800k bill for security and clean up - you think they’re going to invite him\* back\*? Milo came out of this looking like a desperate, washed-up, twerp. Anyone who hears him speak knows what he’s selling, and it’s not any kind of “freedom”. I don’t know why I spent so long talking about this choad. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/76 "2017-12-06T02:53:40Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Milo Yiannopolous? He’s literally a gay Jew! He’s an _asshole_, and he holds a bunch of regressive, harmful, stupid beliefs and spouts them in particularly offensive ways, but anyone calling a _gay Jew_ a Nazi needs a new term or a fucking reality check. You’ve never heard of the [_kapos_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo_(concentration_camp))? Someone needs a “fucking reality check”, but it’s not **Merneith**. I suggest you do some research of your own. Think of all the closet cases out there who hate gays. The violent racists who turn out to have black or Jewish ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/77 "2017-12-06T03:19:18Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Ah. Hm. Yeah. How to put this delicately. Apparently you’re not aware that there were quite a number of Jews who actually helped the Nazis. They hoped that their assimilation into the dominant German culture would protect them and win them official acceptance. It did not … although initially the Nazi party was happy to exploit them in rounding up non-cooperating Jews and stealing their property. > > There’s a list of some of these collaborationist groups, including the Judenrat and the so-called Jewish Gestapo (Group 13) here - > [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish\_Nazi\_collaboration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_Nazi_collaboration) > And here’s a list of some of the notable Jewish collaborators - > [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish\_Nazi\_collaborators](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_Nazi_collaborators) > > including Calel Perechodnik, a member of the Jewish Gestapo - > [Calel Perechodnik - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calel_Perechodnik) > All of this to say - Milo being Jewish and/or Gay doesn’t mean that he can’t a Nazi. And just to cover the other side of the whole “gay Jewish Nazis are impossible!” thing, [Ernst Rohm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_R%C3%B6hm). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/78 "2017-12-06T04:08:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And just to cover the other side of the whole “gay Jewish Nazis are impossible!” thing, [Ernst Rohm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_R%C3%B6hm). And that BTW should be a good warning for the ones that think that being simpatico with the Nazis will spare them, it might… until [the long knives](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives) come out. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/79 "2017-12-06T13:33:11Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > A Nazi is a person who supports the goals, actions and beliefs of the Nazi Party, including, but not limited to: > > - Ahistoric ideas about Aryans and Indo-Europeans > - Unsupported beliefs in the superiority of the White Race > - Unsupported beliefs in the existence of the white race in any sort of meaningful biological way > - Irrational and unscientific ideas about the inferiority of other ethnicities and sexualities > - Support for segregation, discrimination & wholesale destruction of other ethnicities & sexualities > - Perpetuation of Nazi-era slogans (Blood & Soil) or accoutrements (Swastikas) > - Reverence for the historical leaders of the Nazi party > - Willingness to commit violence in support of any of the above stupidity > - Willingness to defend and support those who commit violence in support of the above stupidity > - Refusal to condemn violence in support of Nazis and Nazism > - Endless sealioning about ethics in anti-Nazi journalism and “What even is a Nazi, really?” > > That last one is you, **Budget**. That’s what **I** am talking about here. Congratulations, you just pigeonholed myself, most of the rationalist community, and most people even _remotely_ concerned with how we’re responding to the _incredibly tiny_ wave of white nationalism surfacing into the role of “nazi”. My thesis is this: we are far too hasty to call people “nazis”, and we simultaneously have a cultural convention where our reaction to nazis is a visceral rejection up to and including excluding them from the public square. I have little problem with the latter, but if we’re going to go to such extreme lengths, we need to be _very_ clear on who we’re actually targeting. Let’s take a look at who we’re targeting, eh? > [@](#): > > - Unsupported beliefs in the superiority of the White Race Does this include Charles Murray, who advocates for universal basic income and sees the cultural or genetic inferiority of black people as something best solved through help from the government? I mean, he’s noxious, but he’s probably not a Nazi. This throws a whole lot of people - please note: stupid, racist, unpleasant people, who we should definitely do something about - into the “nazi” category that kinda don’t belong there. > [@](#): > > - Unsupported beliefs in the existence of the white race in any sort of meaningful biological way Hey, same problem. Did you know that people can be wrong about racial issues, and/or be racist idiots, _without_ being nazis? > [@](#): > > - Irrational and unscientific ideas about the inferiority of other ethnicities and sexualities Again, is Charles Murray a Nazi? I don’t think so. There are a lot of ways to be wrong on race without committing the cardinal sins that make the Nazis so heinous. They’re still _bad_, but you just swept a whole bunch of garden-variety racists under the Nazi banner. Hey, is Ben Shapiro a nazi? I don’t like the guy, I think he’s a racist asshole, but he’s still not a Nazi, as one might be able to tell by his big thing being constant accusations that anyone who isn’t 100% pro-israel is antisemitic. > [@](#): > > - Support for segregation, discrimination & wholesale destruction of other ethnicities & sexualities _This_ is where I see the problem with nazis. Nazis, unlike many other kinds of garden-variety racism, _very explicitly support this_. They are in favor of segregation, discrimination, and ethnic cleansing. _That’s what makes them so bad_. Similarly: > [@](#): > > - Willingness to commit violence in support of any of the above stupidity > - Willingness to defend and support those who commit violence in support of the above stupidity All of this is AOK. In fact, this is _why_ we oppose the nazis so fervently. Because the ideology is inherently violent and intolerant. But a lot of the excess stuff seems… well, superfluous. This is where I get hung up here. If someone asks, “Why are Nazis Evil?” and I respond, “Because they’re Nazis”, I haven’t actually answered the question. I’ve just given them a label. What’s actually wrong with nazi ideology? My answer: should they ever actually take power, their ideology leads inexorably to a conclusion of ethnic cleansing and historic atrocities. By signaling that they support this ideology, they have made it clear that they see no problem with that end point. Furthermore, their actual path to political success and their actions once they have political power is characterized by violence. This is far from a comprehensive look at “why Nazis are bad”, but I feel like it’s not that hard to fill in the blanks for any given ethical system. So when I ask “Is Donald Trump a Nazi”, what I’m looking for is not shit like “has Nazi insignia” or “is racist” (most rich white old men are more than a little bit racist, as it turns out), I’m looking for support of ethnic cleansing, discrimination, and taking firm action on racism. There’s a lot we can criticize him for, and we _should_ be worried about his autocratic tendencies. But we should be worried about that for reasons entirely separate from the idea that he’s a fucking nazi. Because he _isn’t_. > [@](#): > > Again, I think that’s just you, dude, and I think you’re saying it’s vague because you don’t want to have to stop sympathizing with people who act like Nazis in public. And if you spent like five minutes looking over my posting history, you’ll see that I’ve spent quite a bit of time slagging off exactly the people you argue I’m “sympathizing” with. I wrote at least one pit thread on Milo, I’ve been quite vocal about cutting _family members_ out of my life for supporting Trump, and I’m not sure if I’ve ever posted about Richard Spencer but if I did it probably had something to do with me laughing at him being used as a human speedbag. So fuck your bullshit accusations. You clearly haven’t read _anything_ I’ve posted here if you’re able to sit there and say something this fucking stupid. > [@](#): > > Same rule as with Richard Spenser: Dude supports Nazi beliefs = Dude is a Nazi. > > Using my definition I established above, Donald trips on: > > - Irrational and unscientific ideas about the inferiority of other ethnicities and sexualities > - Support for segregation, discrimination & wholesale destruction of other ethnicities & sexualities > - Perpetuation of Nazi-era slogans (Blood & Soil) or accoutrements (Swastikas) > - Willingness to defend and support those who commit violence in support of the above stupidity > - Refusal to condemn violence in support of Nazis and Nazism > > Additionally, Donald’s repeated retweets of stuff from hate sites on the internet make it crystal clear where his interests lie. > > Sure, he lies, and plays dumb about it, but everyone who wants to can pick up what he’s laying down. This is a pretty cogent argument. Counterpoint: his Jewish family, his fairly explicit courting of racial demographics (clumsy, crappy, uncomfortable, but imagine how racist it would look if a president _didn’t_ explicitly go out of his way to mention how much he likes African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans), his rejection of David Duke (yes, he did in fact reject David Duke), and so on, and so forth. So why’s he defending neo-nazis? First thought: he might not have figured out that they’re neo-nazis. Second thought: he did. It wasn’t a clear-cut, powerful refutation the way most people would have hoped, but he did, in fact, condemn the violence in charlottesville, and he did condemn the neo-nazis responsible. His attempts to control the narrative were transparently bullshit, but it had worked up until then to just reflect anything with whataboutism, so why stop? I don’t think he’s a Nazi. I think he’s an _idiot_ grasping for any possible partisan advantage. Look, to me the key question is this: does Donald Trump support ethnic cleansing and a return of discriminatory policy and practice? I don’t think he does, or if he does, he does a pretty good job of hiding it. > [@](#): > > No, not when you’re talking about “What is an appropriate tactic to employ when one encounters a Nazi”. > > It’s \*\*when you dismiss the idea that there are actual Nazis operating openly and insist that we have no reasons for calling people Nazis, and try to defend the nazis \*\* - that’s an expression of Nazi sypmpathy. (Bolding mine) Good news: I’ve done no such thing. I haven’t done _any_ of that. Stefan Gorski is almost certainly a nazi. Richard Spencer: definitely a Nazi. Those assholes who marched in Charlottesville: Nazis, or close enough to be willing to share a parade ground with 'em. I just think if we’re going to make a definition so broad as to include basically anyone who’s a racist, we should be careful what connotation we attach to it. That’s the point here. If we’re going to call every garden-variety right-wing racist a nazi, we cannot then turn around and say, “we should punch Nazis”. You’d start in Bumfuck, Alabama, and before clearing the city limits your hand’s gonna be broken and a bunch of pissed-off randos who don’t identify as Nazis, think Hitler was awful, and more (but just happen to be casually racist) are going to be mighty pissed at you. I think there aren’t very many nazis. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305/80 "2017-12-06T15:03:41Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I just think if we’re going to make a definition so broad as to include basically anyone who’s a racist, we should be careful what connotation we attach to it. That’s the point here. If we’re going to call every garden-variety right-wing racist a nazi, we cannot then turn around and say, “we should punch Nazis”. You’d start in Bumfuck, Alabama, and before clearing the city limits your hand’s gonna be broken and a bunch of pissed-off randos who don’t identify as Nazis, think Hitler was awful, and more (but just happen to be casually racist) are going to be mighty pissed at you. I think there aren’t very many nazis. And of course, nowhere does \*\*Merneith \*\*proposes doing your straw man. As for Trump, I have to notice that he is like Nixon, no matter that he had a secretary of state that was a jew and that he listened to his advice, Nixon was shown later to be a jew and minority hater. > **[In Tapes, Nixon Rails About Jews and Blacks (Published 2010)](https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/11/us/politics/11nixon.html)** > > Disparaging remarks about members of ethnic groups are heard in newly released Oval Office recordings. And while I do agree that Trump is not a Nazi, ([he does not help much to discourage that people like David Duke or American Nazis from thinking that Trump is actually doing his public condemnations of then under duress](http://www.businessinsider.com/david-duke-thanks-trump-for-condemning-the-leftist-terrorists-in-charlottesville-2017-8)) Trump does sabotage himself to make his wink of his eye\* to look even better\* to the fascists. **[Hitler speeches published with Donald Trump as cover illustration | Books | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/oct/03/hitler-speeches-published-with-donald-trump-as-cover-illustration)** > [@](#): > > Brenner interviewed Trump, who said it was a gift from “my friend Marty Davis from Paramount who gave me a copy of Mein Kampf, and he’s a Jew” and denied having read the book: “If I had these speeches, and I am not saying that I do, I would never read them.’” > > Davis later told Brenner: “I did give him a book about Hitler, but it was My New Order, Hitler’s speeches, not Mein Kampf. I thought he would find it interesting. I am his friend, but I’m not Jewish.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-either-get-to-call-everyone-you-dont-like-a-nazi/794305.md?page=5)