# You ever had an itch so bad that you scratched so hard you bleed a little? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 30, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799 "2008-06-30T19:06:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/1 "2008-06-30T19:06:39Z")
Well, [you’ve got nothing on this woman.](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/06/30/080630fa_fact_gawande?currentPage=all) > [@](#): > > One day, she went to see a doctor because she wasn’t feeling well, and learned that she had contracted H.I.V. from a contaminated needle…she developed complications from the H.I.V., including shingles, which caused painful, blistering sores across her scalp and forehead…She had two good, quiet years in which she began rebuilding her life. Then she got the itch…“I felt like my inner self, like my brain itself, was itching,” she says. Several creams, anesthetics, and treatments were tried, and nothing worked. OCD meds, bandaging her hands up, _nothing_ stopped the itch nor her scratching. > [@](#): > > One morning, after she was awakened by her bedside alarm, she sat up and, she recalled, “this fluid came down my face, this greenish liquid.” She pressed a square of gauze to her head and went to see her doctor again…The doctor looked closely at the wound…Only in the Emergency Department at Massachusetts General Hospital, after the doctors started swarming, and one told her she needed surgery now, did M. learn what had happened. She had scratched through her skull during the night—and all the way into her brain. :eek: Wait, that’s not quite accurate enough. :eek: :eek: :eek: 😕😕😕 :eek: :eek: :eek: 😕 😕😕 I mean, to her _brain?_ How can someone’s fingernails possibly get all the way through the skull? _shudder_ But beyond that, the article is a fascinating read. It delves into reasons why people get persistent itches, pains, phantom limbs, and that sort of thing. I highly recommend reading it all the way through. ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/2 "2008-06-30T19:39:42Z")
That was fascinating, but I think that you should have included a “phantom itchiness” warning. _scratchscratchscratch_ ---
**Author:** ![AngelicGemma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/439d5e/32.png) [@AngelicGemma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelicGemma)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/3 "2008-06-30T19:57:47Z")
TMI! TMI! That image will stay with me forever! ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/4 "2008-06-30T20:11:52Z")
Ugh. Gah. Mmph. Just, no. AGH! _willies_ Okay, now that that’s over with, how the hell can you scratch _through your freakin’ skull?_ Keratin is a hell of a lot weaker than bone; given a wear contest between the two, you’d be scratching with bloody nubs that were once fingertips before you made a dent in the bone – unless she had one hell of a chronic case of osteoporosis and a severe calcium deficiency or something else that made the bone very weak and/or thin, 'cos you just can’t go trepanning armed only with your own fingers. There’s something missing from this story. ---
**Author:** ![trustno\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@trustno\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trustno_1)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/5 "2008-06-30T20:19:18Z")
all this itchin’ talk is making me itch! ---
**Author:** ![Flander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8c91f0/32.png) [@Flander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flander)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/6 "2008-06-30T20:24:07Z")
Mom always said scratching would make it worse. I guess so! ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/7 "2008-06-30T20:34:30Z")
That was one cool article. As for the brain thing, it didn’t happen overnight. I think it’s feasible to scratch through bone over a period of years. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/8 "2008-06-30T20:37:03Z")
Now my forehead itches like _crazy_. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/9 "2008-06-30T20:48:23Z")
[QUOTE=Autolycus] That was one cool article. As for the brain thing, it didn’t happen overnight. I think it’s feasible to scratch through bone over a period of years. [/QUOTE] This would mean, A) She had a permanent wound on her head from scratching that exact same spot that was always kept open and never allowed to heal over – though possibly healed such that the bone just remained exposed; B) She was scratching bone, knew she was scratching bone, and kept scratching anyway; C) Remained completely unaware that, over time, she was boring a hole in her freakin’ skull, as if she couldn’t feel the well she was digging – or could and still kept at it anyway; and D) Never saw a doctor the whole time, or the doctor she did see completely missed the _growing hole in her skull_. This still sounds like a bag o’ shenanigans. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/10 "2008-06-30T20:56:52Z")
[QUOTE=Mindfield] This still sounds like a bag o’ shenanigans. [/QUOTE] I think D is the only one that can’t be explained by incessant and irrational scratching. I guess I find it hard to believe the _New Yorker_ wouldn’t fact check on something like this. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/11 "2008-06-30T22:58:09Z")
[QUOTE=Autolycus] I think D is the only one that can’t be explained by incessant and irrational scratching. [/quote] Although I realize that this is the definition of _irrational_, how could scratching exposed bone possibly provide any kind of relief? There are no nerves in bone, nothing to send a signal to the brain to tell it that something is making contact. Except for the bone-conducting sound and minor vibrations that nerves in nearby skin would pick up from the scratching action, it would more or less feel like scratching a slab of treated concrete. Given that one scratches to relieve an itch, even a phantom itch, one would think someone would want to scratch an area where there’s some sensation to give them a feeling of relief. I guess I’m just having trouble understanding how even an irrational desire to scratch could possibly be of any relief when the area being scratched offers no physical feedback from the act. It would make more sense if it was an absent nervous habit or something – like picking at scabs or dead skin or biting the inside of your cheek or something, only extremely hardcore. [QUOTE=Autolycus] I guess I find it hard to believe the _New Yorker_ wouldn’t fact check on something like this. [/QUOTE] You’d think, but something like this just beggars belief, at least without further detail. ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/12 "2008-06-30T23:16:37Z")
[QUOTE=Mindfield] Although I realize that this is the definition of _irrational_, how could scratching exposed bone possibly provide any kind of relief? There are no nerves in bone, nothing to send a signal to the brain to tell it that something is making contact. Except for the bone-conducting sound and minor vibrations that nerves in nearby skin would pick up from the scratching action, it would more or less feel like scratching a slab of treated concrete. Given that one scratches to relieve an itch, even a phantom itch, one would think someone would want to scratch an area where there’s some sensation to give them a feeling of relief. [/QUOTE] I, too, think that the article is missing some details, but I’m betting that the basic narrative is accurate. Three things you’re missing: 1. The full article specifies that the itchy part of her head was otherwise completely numb (no sensation of touch, no pain when poked, no nothing). 2. She attempted to stop scratching during the day, but most of the damage happened in her sleep. 3. The whole point of the article was that some people legitimately feel sensations with little or no physical input, so persistent itching and scratching of a numb area wasn’t necessarily related to anything physical. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/13 "2008-06-30T23:35:24Z")
[QUOTE=Risha] I, too, think that the article is missing some details, but I’m betting that the basic narrative is accurate. Three things you’re missing: 1. The full article specifies that the itchy part of her head was otherwise completely numb (no sensation of touch, no pain when poked, no nothing). 2. She attempted to stop scratching during the day, but most of the damage happened in her sleep. 3. The whole point of the article was that some people legitimately feel sensations with little or no physical input, so persistent itching and scratching of a numb area wasn’t necessarily related to anything physical. [/QUOTE] Perhaps – but it still doesn’t explain how doctors didn’t pick up on this and try to put a stop to it somehow. You’d think they’d see that she was gouging a hole in her head – which any doctor would consider a pretty dangerous activity – and do everything they could to put a stop to it long before she hit paydirt, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/14 "2008-06-30T23:36:44Z")
I was listening to the author of that article, Dr. Atul Gawande, on NPR last week. It was an interesting interview, readable and listenable [here](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91852486). [quote=] In the late 1980s, researchers did experiments where they gave subjects “very itchy things and could turn up the amount of itch substance driven into their skin,” he says. “They found that they could reach a maximum tolerable level of itch and yet not have pain. That led them to separate the idea that there is itching and it’s totally different from pain.” … That suggests that there’s “something more interesting to our perceptions than just that you trigger a nerve, it goes up your spinal cord to your brain and then it rings a bell in the brain, like a clapper ringing a bell,” Gawande says. “Here are cases where you don’t have the clapper and yet the bell continues to ring.” Gawande found himself itching even as he wrote the article — especially when he was describing how lice cause an itchy scalp or how a group of flies could make you itchy just by brushing lightly across your skin. Now, stop scratching. [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![adhemar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@adhemar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhemar)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/15 "2008-07-01T00:22:49Z")
Since scalp wounds bleed heavily this just doesn’t ring true that she scratched a hole in her skull to her brain. she would have been covered in blood long before she would have gotten to brain, probably even died of blood loss. adhemar (ianad) ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/16 "2008-07-01T02:11:37Z")
It seems like some sort of obsessive compulsive order. People that have it bad can’t stop themselves and it can be a compulsion to do something they know is harmful. I’ll have to file lady this with the guy who’s skull at the top of his head fell off. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/17 "2008-07-01T02:16:58Z")
[Man who’s skull fell off.](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2006-07/07/content_635362.htm) ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/18 "2008-07-01T02:30:02Z")
The part\* I can’t make sense of is the “greenish liquid”. Isn’t cerebrospinal fluid clear or yellowish? Green is usually an indication of infection (well, except in the gall bladder, of course!), not brains. \*ETA: I mean, the OTHER part, of course. Besides the “how the hell did she scratch through bone without her doctors noticing?!?!?” part. 'Cause the article does say she was under very frequent observation by a number of doctors. ---
**Author:** ![ShermanAter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ShermanAter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShermanAter)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/19 "2008-07-01T02:49:53Z")
Sorry, just skimmed the thread but it is mosquito season here. Now, I realize that we don’t have them anywhere near as bad as other areas but the damn things zero in on me. Ive tried lotions and sprays and creams and skin-so-soft and fabric softeners and toothpaste and Benadryl syrup and I still end up scratching the offending skin till it bleeds and then scratch some more. Fuck I hate mosquitoes. have a nice day ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799/20 "2008-07-01T02:59:25Z")
An unusual amount of blood (for such shallow skin) is pumped to the scalp. She would have been startlingly bloody before she was anywhere near through bone. And what greenish liquid pours from the skull? The article is almost certainly either embellished, reported inaccurately, or just a flat-out hoax. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-ever-had-an-itch-so-bad-that-you-scratched-so-hard-you-bleed-a-little/454799.md?page=2)