# You find a crate of Thompson submachine guns in the woods in England...then what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 9, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004 "2011-03-09T02:47:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/41 "2011-03-10T10:28:09Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Hijack: Seriously? Why?? What were those producers thinking/ the writers smoking? Poor Doyle is rotating in his grave, I guess. Why? Because it works. The original stories weren’t written as quaint period pieces, after all, and earlier adaptations continually updated them, right up to Basil Rathbone. And it’s really not much of a stretch, when you look at it: right at the beginning of _A Study In Scarlet_ we have Dr Watson, an army surgeon invalided home from Afghanistan, forced to share a flat with a complete stranger by the expense of living in London – how contemporary is that? You should try and catch it, sometime – it’s fun. It’s not as though Doyle himself took the thing that seriously. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/42 "2011-03-10T10:42:30Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > The royals probably have shotgun licences, due to their landowning status as well as all the things mentioned by Wotnot (landowners are occasionally allowed small-gauge shotguns for vermin control), but any automatic machine guns carry a mandatory 5- year minimum sentence (mentioned at the end of [this](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10220974)). In the unlikely event that they found a way round that, the outcry would be HUGE. The royals certainly have shotgun licences, because they regularly shoot pheasants (among other legitimate targets). They have rifle licences, too, for hunting deer. And rather than occasionally, I’d have said that landowners (and, indeed, most farmers) almost _invariably_ have a shotgun licence – or employ someone who has. > [@](#): > > I didn’t realise you meant the BBC reboot at first. Basically, yeah, he’d be in huge amounts of trouble. Just having the weapon would be at least five years, as stated above, but taking it from the military? He’d be in prison for life even without having used it to kill a person. I’d be very surprised indeed if he could be sentenced to life simply for possession of a firearm, no matter where he got it from. Nevertheless, he’s a very naughty boy. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/43 "2011-03-10T12:24:50Z")
The _Western Morning News_ ran a case 2…or 3 years ago of a man arrested and sentenced after he found a gun and turned it into the police. He claimed he thought it was a fake and turned it in just to be safe, the police claimed that didn’t matter, by merely touching it he was “in possession” and so he went to jail. If that was all there was to it, that’s pretty well indefensible, but cases like this often have more to them than the press reports. I’ll see if I can find the link to it. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/44 "2011-03-10T13:30:09Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Perhaps someone can confirm this. I am under the impression that items of historical significance purposely buried are the property of the state whereas items of historical significance that weren’t put there purposely is fair game to whoever finds it (at least on private property). If this were the case then the guns, having been buried on purpose, could not possible belong to whoever found it. Not counting the fact that you can’t own a Thompson in England anyway. [Law of Treasure Trove.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_trove#English_common_law) Since the guns were left with the intention of later recovery, this would apply. And the items would belong to the state. At least that’s how it works with to recovered hauls of Roman coins, for instance. I’m not sure it would apply to guns. And note that with coins, the finder is paid the full monetary value of the objects. If the guns are useful as museum pieces, it might apply. But if the guns are destroyed, he’d get nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/45 "2011-03-10T15:09:55Z")
I agree with **WotNot**. I’m a pretty hardcore Sherlockian, and overall I really enjoyed the reboot. > **[Sherlock (TV series)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_(TV_series))** > > Sherlock is a British mystery crime drama television series based on Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes detective stories. Created by Steven Moffat and Mark Gatiss, it stars Benedict Cumberbatch as Sherlock Holmes and Martin Freeman as Doctor John Watson. Thirteen episodes have been produced, with four three-part series airing from 2010 to 2017 and a special episode that aired on 1 January 2016. The series is set in the present day, while the one-off special features a Victorian period ... [http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=10798031&cp=&sr=1&kw=sherlock&origkw=sherlock&parentPage=search](http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=10798031&cp=&sr=1&kw=sherlock&origkw=sherlock&parentPage=search) ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/46 "2011-03-10T15:26:01Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > The _Western Morning News_ ran a case 2…or 3 years ago of a man arrested and sentenced after he found a gun and turned it into the police. He claimed he thought it was a fake and turned it in just to be safe, the police claimed that didn’t matter, by merely touching it he was “in possession” and so he went to jail. If that was all there was to it, that’s pretty well indefensible, but cases like this often have more to them than the press reports. I’ll see if I can find the link to it. I think this is the case. He didn’t go to jail. [http://www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/news/GUN-SOLDIER-WALKS-FREE-COURT/article-1626207-detail/article.html](http://www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/news/GUN-SOLDIER-WALKS-FREE-COURT/article-1626207-detail/article.html) ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/47 "2011-03-10T15:35:06Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > The _Western Morning News_ ran a case 2…or 3 years ago of a man arrested and sentenced after he found a gun and turned it into the police. He claimed he thought it was a fake and turned it in just to be safe, the police claimed that didn’t matter, by merely touching it he was “in possession” and so he went to jail. If that was all there was to it, that’s pretty well indefensible, but cases like this often have more to them than the press reports. I’ll see if I can find the link to it. This is the Paul Clarke case. [Report from the court here.](http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thisissurreytoday.co.uk%2Fnews%2FEx-soldier-faces-jail-handing-gun%2Farticle-1509082-detail%2Farticle.html&rct=j&q=paul%20clarke%20gun&ei=Tut4Td_REsGphAfcoaT3Bg&usg=AFQjCNHlNJQuv4YssNFKnyvh709Ib1EiqQ&sig2=gfHYU-izfNHDNoP_Pwsi7w&cad=rja) [Analysis by UK legal blogger here.](http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2009/11/paul-clarke-anatomy-of-injustice.html) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/48 "2011-03-10T16:42:43Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > This is the Paul Clarke case… Thanks for those two posts. Looks like there’s more here than met the eye at first glance, and that the defendant might not be quite so blameless and public-minded after all. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/49 "2011-03-10T17:12:03Z")
Europe almost certainly has hundreds of secret weapons stores. The Soviets planted them in West German for use in wartime by terrorists (or freedom fighters, depending). NATO hid theirs in Austria (handed over to the Austrian government when it was reestablished) and elsewhere to arm ‘stay-behind’ forces. Add to that long-lost Nazi caves and emergency stashes of Roman broadswords and you have a small, but interesting problem. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/50 "2011-03-10T17:27:31Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > I’d be very surprised indeed if he could be sentenced to life simply for possession of a firearm, no matter where he got it from. Nevertheless, he’s a very naughty boy. Not as a civilian, no, but the military would be really pissed off and would punish him much more harshly than civilian courts. Maybe a life sentence is an exaggeration, but it’d definitely be a lot longer than the civilian minimum of five years. It was one of the few things from the 21st century reboot that didn’t sit well with me, because the original Watson having his gun from Afghanistan was such a run-of-the-mill thing for an ex-soldier, but an ex-soldier keeping one now is a huge deal. It’s the action of an aggressive gun-nut, not a mostly gentle person who is only violent when absolutely necessary. But I guess that could be another take on Watson’s character! ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/51 "2011-03-10T17:50:24Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > If I found this, I’d shut my mouth. Collectors in the USA are paying $2000-$7000 apiece for WWII-era TSMGs! They’re paying a hell of a lot more than that, but the ones they are collecting are legal. These guns would come with [an even bigger price](http://www.rmgo.org/bardwell-faq-on-nfa-weapons/penalties-for-nfa-violations): > [@](#): > > A conviction for a violation of the NFA will result in a felony conviction, punishable by up to ten years in prison, and/or a $10,000 fine. See 26 U.S.C. sec. 5871. The U.S. Sentencing Guidelines ordinarily require prison time, even for a first offense with no prior criminal record, however various mitigating and aggravating factors can raise or lower the possible sentence range for a first offense. > > The statute of limitations on violations of the NFA is three years. See 26 U.S.C. sec. 6531. The statute of limitations does not begin to run on possession offenses until the possession stops. As long as you possess the contraband item, you are in danger of being prosecuted. There aren’t many US collectors that would want these weapons, because they aren’t US criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/52 "2011-03-10T17:55:23Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > No, no, you’re confusing things. In Germany, people of noble family used to get away with a slap on the wrist (until after WWII). > > In the US, people with a lot of money and/or friends in high places get away with a slap on the wrist. > > See the difference? Huh, I missed the memo about Germany being an egalitarian utopia. ---
**Author:** ![ducati](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cc9497/32.png) [@ducati](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ducati)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/53 "2011-03-10T18:00:31Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > I don’t believe that full auto firearms are legal in any states outside of a few rare and highly regulated exceptions. Semi-auto versions of assault rifles are legal, sure, but the Tommy is an actual machine gun. The “sub” part of it means it fires pistol ammo rather than rifle ammo, is all. Fully automatic weapons - machine guns- are perfectly legal in 46 of our 50 states. Og bless America. When my socialist BIL asks me why I need such toys, I ask why he owns and drives an Audi A-8 \*\*and \*\*a Porsche 911. A Nissan Leaf would get him to work, but the 911 is a bit faster and more fun to open up. And so is my MP-5. Like a Porsche, all it takes is money and paperwork. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/54 "2011-03-10T18:11:15Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Not as a civilian, no, but the military would be really pissed off and would punish him much more harshly than civilian courts. Maybe a life sentence is an exaggeration, but it’d definitely be a lot longer than the civilian minimum of five years. But he’s a civilian now, surely. So, beyond any punishment from the civil courts, what could the army do to him? A retroactive dishonourable discharge and dock his pension? > [@](#): > > It was one of the few things from the 21st century reboot that didn’t sit well with me, because the original Watson having his gun from Afghanistan was such a run-of-the-mill thing for an ex-soldier, but an ex-soldier keeping one now is a huge deal. It’s the action of an aggressive gun-nut, not a mostly gentle person who is only violent when absolutely necessary. But I guess that could be another take on Watson’s character! I’m not sure about aggressive gun-nut, but there are definite hints of his being a bit of an adrenaline junky (with a gambling problem, too, if I remember rightly) in the stories, so it’s perhaps not that much of a stretch. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/55 "2011-03-10T19:16:48Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > But he’s a civilian now, surely. So, beyond any punishment from the civil courts, what could the army do to him? A retroactive dishonourable discharge and dock his pension? > I’m not sure about aggressive gun-nut, but there are definite hints of his being a bit of an adrenaline junky (with a gambling problem, too, if I remember rightly) in the stories, so it’s perhaps not that much of a stretch. I’m making a WAG here, but suspect a former soldier could still be tried by a military court for something he did while a soldier. Even if he were in a civilian court, the military would press for a harsher sentence - they don’t want to go encouraging other soldiers to do the same, after all, and it’d be a PR disaster for them. He’d probably lose his pension and possibly be struck off the British Medical Council. Those are pretty big consequences aside from prison. Hmm, possibly true about the adrenalin junkie bit. It’s just that keeping a gun like that would be such an extreme act now, or at least it seems so to me; it’s not something you can just drop in to a character with little comment. But they could take it somewhere interesting - it was a good adaptation overall, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/56 "2011-03-10T22:39:37Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Are you suggesting that spraying down a Model A full of mobsters with a Thompson isn’t sporting? The the US South, there are Civil War re-enactors. Will Chicago someday have Beer War re-enactors? Forward that question to **Cecil**! ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/57 "2011-03-10T23:13:53Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I’m making a WAG here, but suspect a former soldier could still be tried by a military court for something he did while a soldier. Even if he were in a civilian court, the military would press for a harsher sentence - they don’t want to go encouraging other soldiers to do the same, after all, and it’d be a PR disaster for them. I don’t know… even if the Army could subject Watson to court martial (which I doubt) the most they could probably prove against him would be failure to surrender his sidearm, which might get him two years at most. And even supposing they had legal standing in a civil court to press for a harsher sentence, the judge couldn’t exceed the maximum sentence for the crime. Not that there’d be any need for them to, anyway – aside from simple possession of a prohibited firearm (with a sentence of 5–10 years), he’s also guilty of possession of prohibited firearm in a public place, trespass while carrying a prohibited firearm, possession of prohibited firearm with intent to endanger life… But then, of course, he did go a shoot someone, so he’d presumably be charged with murder, and he probably would get life after all. Actually, I think that the moment the police started asking questions, Mycroft would swan in with all the necessary documentation to prove that Watson was an MI6 officer, and it would all go away. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/58 "2011-03-11T10:48:49Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Europe almost certainly has hundreds of secret weapons stores. The Soviets planted them in West German for use in wartime by terrorists (or freedom fighters, depending). NATO hid theirs in Austria (handed over to the Austrian government when it was reestablished) and elsewhere to arm ‘stay-behind’ forces. > > Add to that long-lost Nazi caves and emergency stashes of Roman broadswords and you have a small, but interesting problem. You forgot the [GLADIO](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio)caches of weapons in Europe that were established in the 50s onward in Italy for fear of the communists; most likely one of these caches was used for the [Oktoberfest bomb](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oktoberfestattentat). ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/59 "2011-03-11T19:14:34Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > I don’t know… even if the Army could subject Watson to court martial (which I doubt) the most they could probably prove against him would be failure to surrender his sidearm, which might get him two years at most. And even supposing they had legal standing in a civil court to press for a harsher sentence, the judge couldn’t exceed the maximum sentence for the crime. > > Not that there’d be any need for them to, anyway – aside from simple possession of a prohibited firearm (with a sentence of 5–10 years), he’s also guilty of possession of prohibited firearm in a public place, trespass while carrying a prohibited firearm, possession of prohibited firearm with intent to endanger life… > > But then, of course, he did go a shoot someone, so he’d presumably be charged with murder, and he probably would get life after all. > > Actually, I think that the moment the police started asking questions, Mycroft would swan in with all the necessary documentation to prove that Watson was an MI6 officer, and it would all go away. Why 2 years? Is the military minimum less than the civilian one? Good point about Mycroft. It’d be a good way of making Sherlock feel obliged to him. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004/60 "2011-03-11T19:42:08Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Why 2 years? Is the military minimum less than the civilian one? It’s a complete guess, based on looking at this [list of military offences.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offences_against_military_law_in_the_United_Kingdom) I’m thinking that the most they could _prove_ against him is “contravening standing orders” (ie surrendering his weapon on discharge from the service). They could try for theft, but they’d need to be able to show he meant to keep it, rather than just hanging on to it by accident (“Oh, I’m very sorry I didn’t realise I still had that. What with the traumatic wound, and being in hospital, and trying to find somewhere to live and everything, I’ve only just got around to unpacking properly.”) Military law seems to be a lot more relaxed about people just generally being in possession of weapons, strangely. 😉 > [@](#): > > Good point about Mycroft. It’d be a good way of making Sherlock feel obliged to him. And, indeed, blackmailing Watson into spying on Sherlock for him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-find-a-crate-of-thompson-submachine-guns-in-the-woods-in-england-then-what/574004.md?page=4)