I’m not putting forth any arguments now, but defending my stance against ideals being ascribed to me that I do not possess, did not claim to possess, and did not even allude to. Perhaps you missed my first post in the thread? My argument was wholly contained therein. I see no merit in repeating myself.
It shouldn’t be difficult to comprehend the difference.
Right at the moment, in my current woeful financial situation, I would be sorely tempted to take the money and run. Presumably he’d never even know he had a winning ticket in there, so he’d not feel any different about it.
On the other hand, if I was somewhat financially secure, I’d probably give it back to him, without mention of what I know. Maybe.
The hypo states there is no cash inside. The rationale for trashing the wallet itself is 1) fingerprints (because not everyone’s morality aligns with mine and I don’t want the headache) and 2) because returning the wallet itself with the tickets removed would make it more obvious that the tickets were purposely removed, as opposed to just sending the cards and photos themselves. Remember, I don’t want to hurt the guy. And I know I would be hurt if I was the owner of a lost winning ticket in these circumstances. But it was my fault for not signing the ticket. Better not to have an inkling that the ticket was a winner in the first place.
How about restating yourself? Do you believe that if you lose your purse, the only things in it that remain your property are signed documents (driver’s license, credit cards, etc.)? So your cash, your phone, and whatever else might be in there are now the rightful property of anyone who finds the purse?
Read my post above yours. It’s outside the intent of the hypothetical. I wouldn’t mind PMing about it though
You won’t answer that question out in the open? So what that it’s outside the scope of the OP? I’m trying to understand your position about the OP by posing another hypothetical to clarify the issues?
You’re worried about fingerprints, so clearly you understand that some legal authorities might consider what you’re doing is a crime.
It makes no sense at all that sending back IDs and photos without the wallet would be somehow less suspicious than sending back the whole wallet with only the ticket removed.
The photos – they also have no intrinsic value. What makes them different from the ticket? How can you justify returning them and not the winning ticket?
Seriously, I have no problem at all with keeping the ticket myself, as I’ve said I would do. But you are rationalizing to ridiculous lengths because you are not willing to call your act unethical. Perhaps your self-image won’t allow that. I would keep the money in the knowledge that I was being unethical.
I realize that lawsuits, no matter the frivolity or precedent, have been filed over less.
I’m choosing not to discuss extra-hypothetical issues in the thread because I don’t want to continue being strawmanned (strawmended?) to oblivion.
I disagree that someone elses carelessness justifies my keeping their property.
Otara
Added fun!
7 years after their winning ticket was stolen by a fradulent retailer - the OLG gets the money to the rightful winners.
In addition to being a valuable tool in OLG’s player protection arsenal, DART is also helping to better empower lottery customers. A new microsite called OLG REPORTS, available at http://www.olg.ca/reports/ , makes accessible to all Ontarians an unprecedented amount of lottery-related data and information, including profiles of unclaimed lottery tickets and an up-to-date list of licensed retailers that have sold winning tickets worth over $10,000.
“OLG extend its thanks to the OPP for their dogged pursuit of the rightful purchaser, to the OLG team that put DART to work for the good of our lottery players,” Godfrey said, “and, most of all, I want to extend my thanks and sincere congratulations to our winners.”
OLG will be commencing a civil action against the Chung family charged by the OPP in connection with this matter. An attempt will be made to recover the money in this case. Launching a civil case does not prejudice the criminal case against them.
I voted for the second of the three options in each case, and I am offended by those who suggest that I would not act this way in reality. I’m not particularly interested in judging those who would act differently, that’s their choice, and of course one never really knows what one would do unless the actual situation arose. But I feel strongly that I have no right to keep the ticket in this situation. I would not mail it in case it got lost and the rightful owner accused me of stealing it - they have to collect it from me in person.
For me, the more interesting question is as the rightful owner of the ticket, if you got lucky and had the wallet returned to you, how much should you give the finder? I think the only morally defensible amount is half the winnings. But that is a LOT of money in practice. On the other hand, you yourself would still be a lot better off than if the wallet had not been found, or found and not returned.
I do not understand the posters who say they would keep the ticket but return the wallet. How is that OK? It may be legal, but I do not think it is ethical at all.
No, it belongs to the person who bought it. Just like anything else people legally buy.
Do I have a cite for what, my opinion? This is the IMHO forum where people offer their opinions. This is a poll asking what I would do in the situation. This is not a debate.
Anyway…the lottery rules are clear and this is why they encourage people to sign the tickets as soon as they are bought. Exceptions about an example of a stolen ticket aside.
So when you said that per the rules lottery tickets belong to whoever signs them that was your opinion? You weren’t stating it as a fact? And now that I have shown that the rules do not say that, it’s still your opinion that an unsigned ticket does not belong to anyone? How odd.
It may not be a debate, but errant nonsense is still a fair target. In my opinion, of course.
I’m not sure you’ve shown that yet, especially given the quoting of actual lottery rules elsewhere in this thread. Are these quotes inaccurate somehow?
If you can show that the situation in your link (a lottery merchant lying to a customer who handed him the ticket) is treated the same as the hypothetical (a purchaser loses the ticket on the street, unsigned, and some other random joe picks it up), then I’ll be more convinced.
This. My vote was other because “ethical thing to do” and “ethics aside I’d do X” are pretty much the same thing for me. I would find it impossible or at least VERY difficult to keep the money no matter how much I want to. Which is funny, because if it were the mystery drug-dealer’s-money-lost-on-the-beach-and-no-one-sees-you-find-it scenario that pops up here from time to time, I’d have NO problems taking and weaving that windfall into my lifestyle. 
However, in this case, the person was careless with “found money” so I’d hope (I’m not sure, I might even hint?) for a wee reward.
No, it belongs to the person who bought it. Just like anything else people legally buy.
[/QUOTE]
Why did you snip the quote? Here’s the entirety of what I wrote:
A lost item may be claimed by the first finder if there is no reasonable way to determine its original owner. If you just found the lottery ticket on the street or blowing in the wind, and there was no one around to ask if they had lost it, it seems unreasonable to say you cannot claim it. If one were inside a facility that had a lost & found one might take it there, but out of doors, with no way to establish anybody’s bona fides? Sorry, that’s catch as catch can.
Doesn’t it chafe when you pull statistics out of your butt like that?
I frankly think that there are a lot more than one in a thousand people who hold their integrity as dearer to them than extra material goods. I don’t know what I’d put the percentage at; probably less than 50%. But for me, my integrity is key to who I am. Yeah, I’d hope for a reward, but that’s it.
It may be related to my lack of gambling. The only bets I ever make are for an ice cream cone, with my wife, on the understanding that the winnings will come out of our joint bank account and that we’ll both get ice cream either way (yeah, I know that’s sickly precious, sorry). When I was in Vegas for a couple of days a few years ago, I didn’t even drop $10 on a roulette wheel: despite intending to, whenever I passed one I was repulsed by the idea of throwing $10 away. I’ve bought two lottery tickets in my life, mostly for the experience of having done so. I have my vices certainly, but gambling doesn’t even begin to appeal to me. It’s a different world from mine. And if I found that winning lottery ticket, it’d be something from that different world, something to which I have very little emotional attachment; returning it would be pretty easy.
And I think people are misunderstanding the laws around lottery tickets. If I understand them correctly, they don’t trump laws regarding theft, they just limit the liability of the lottery commissions. If I find someone’s property on the ground, I have no right to remove anything from it, whether it’s a photograph, a hundred dollar bill, a credit card, a driver’s license, or a lottery ticket. If I keep something I find therein, I’m a thief.
Or they’ve handled other people’s money without skimming, even when it wouldn’t be noticed.
If I actually thought that was a winning ticket, I wouldn’t want the responsibility of identifying the rightful owner. I’d turn it in to the cops with a full report of where and when I found it and let them have the job of verifying who owned what. I really doubt that they’ll say that the ticket is mine because it isn’t signed, and I’m totally fine with that.
I once had a friend correct me when I said I’d had money stolen. Her idea was that it was my fault that someone else had my money. I’d put my purse on the top of the car while I buckled the baby into his car seat and forgotten to retrieve it afterwards. The purse had fallen off somewhere between the mall and home.
Later I got a call from the other end of town. Someone had my wallet (empty) and checkbook. Someone had obviously found the purse, taken out the wallet, taken the money and then either ditched it or called to see if I’d give them a reward. But that wasn’t stealing because I had left my purse out where anyone could pick it up. I had lost that money, no one had stolen it. I still think that’s crap and I won’t do it to anyone else.
Honestly, I really believe I would return the ticket to its owner. I don’t think I could enjoy the money knowing I had stolen it from somebody else.