# You flee from cops. Cops crash. You are a killer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 7, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942 "2005-08-07T02:33:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942/1 "2005-08-07T02:33:58Z")
I was just watching America’s Most Wanted and they described an incident wherein a pair of police officers in a car were chasing after a suspect. The suspect went onto a narrow country road where the speed limit was under 25. The cops follow him, driving extremely fast. The police car loses control and crashes, and one of the officers was unfortunately killed. The suspect ([Mark David Wood](http://www.amw.com/fugitives/brief.cfm?id=33726) is still at large, and according to the show, faces charges of second degree homicide. However, I don’t understand how he could be charged with homicide if he did not directly lead to the officer’s death. It was their decision to follow him on the narrow road at an extremely high speed, so how could he be charged in the man’s death? I don’t have a good understanding of criminal law, so maybe someone could tell me how it is determined that the suspect was guilty of the police crash, and not that it was simply an accident in which no particular person was at fault? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942/2 "2005-08-07T02:42:13Z")
IANAL, but I think this would be called [felony murder.](http://www.criminaldefense.com/violent_felonymurder.html) If fleeing from the cops is a felony in Michigan, then that is what they are charging him with, or some variation thereof. ---
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942/3 "2005-08-07T02:54:02Z")
The felony murder rule holds that a death that occurs during the commission of an inherently dangerous felony can result in a murder charge. It appears from your link that the suspect is in Michigan. I don’t know what Michigan’s felony murder rule is, but at least in California, the death of a police officer in a chase is [not felony murder](http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/crimprof_blog/2005/02/new_caseclassro.html) (link is to a blawg): > [@](#): > > the crime of “driving with a willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property while fleeing from a pursuing police officer” is not an “inherently dangerous” crime for purposes of the felony-murder rule. In Michigan, it appears that felony murder requires an intent to kill, as stated on the [Michigan prosecutors’ website](http://www.michiganprosecutor.org/Define.htm#M): > [@](#): > > “felony murder” (murder committed in the course of another felony) . . . Murder cannot occur accidentally, the defendant must have intended to kill. I believe **Gfactor** is in Michigan and **Bricker** practices criminal law. I’d be interested in their take on whether this is an aggressive charge if, as the OP posits, the death was accidental. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942/4 "2005-08-07T02:54:24Z")
Around my old neck of the woods a bit over two decades ago a young man was fleeing on a motorcycle when the cop (who knew who the motorcyclist was, yes thats important) chasing him hit a tree and sadly died. The local prosecutor wanted to charge the motorcyclist for murder of some sort or another that slips my mind at the moment. But when it came out that the cop knew the kid who was on the bike (he was 16) and openly radioed it in prior to the crash, they decided not to prosecute for the big charges under the understanding that chasing the motorcycle on the unpaved one lane roads when he knew who the person was to be not right? The cop in question was my uncle so I guess I am familiar with it and most of my family seemed to understand, through the grief of course. I will have to ask my mother for more precise details as I was not in the area when this happened. Sidenote I know the guy who took off, and **every** time I visit the area he has a new set of flowers on my uncles grave. But I’ll leave it too the lawyers to answer the how’s and why’s someone can be charged with murder in some cases and not in others. ---
**Author:** ![jepflast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@jepflast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jepflast)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942/5 "2005-08-07T03:26:46Z")
I just have another related story to share. One time I was chatting with UNC’s (University of North Carolina) campus police (incidentally, it was during the filming of the movie Patch Adams), who informed me that they won’t chase suspects/criminals across campus because if the suspect somehow gets hurt during the chase, the police could get sued for damages. So there’s the exact opposite situation. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942/6 "2005-08-07T03:41:54Z")
> [@Campion](#): > > I believe **Gfactor** is in Michigan and **Bricker** practices criminal law. I’d be interested in their take on whether this is an aggressive charge if, as the OP posits, the death was accidental. I’m not up on the caselaw, which can get very specific, but here is a case that lays out the necessary intent > [@](#): > > while committing the underlying offense, the defendant acted with an **intent to kill** , with an **intent to commit great bodily harm** , or with **wanton and wilful disregard of the likelihood that the natural tendency of his behavior would be to cause death or great bodily harm**. [http://courtofappeals.mijud.net/Digest/newHTML/14741621.htm#14741621002](http://courtofappeals.mijud.net/Digest/newHTML/14741621.htm#14741621002) The statute does not spell out the necessary mens rea, but the case makes clear that there are three kinds of mens rea acceptable in felony murder cases. In other words, the mens rea only needs to be wilful and wanton. Here is the first-degree murder statute: > [@](#): > > 750.316 First degree murder; penalty; definitions. > > Sec. 316. > > (1) A person who commits any of the following is guilty of first degree murder and shall be punished by imprisonment for life: > > (a) Murder perpetrated by means of poison, lying in wait, or any other willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing. > > (b) > > Murder committed in the **perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, arson, criminal sexual conduct in the first, second, or third degree, child abuse in the first degree, a major controlled substance offense, robbery, carjacking, breaking and entering of a dwelling, home invasion in the first or second degree, larceny of any kind, extortion, kidnapping, or vulnerable adult abuse in the first and second degree under section 145n.** > > (c) A murder of a peace officer or a corrections officer committed while the peace officer or corrections officer is lawfully engaged in the performance of any of his or her duties as a peace officer or corrections officer, knowing that the peace officer or corrections officer is a peace officer or corrections officer engaged in the performance of his or her duty as a peace officer or corrections officer. [http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-750-316&queryid=10861907&highlight=murder](http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-750-316&queryid=10861907&highlight=murder) I have bolded the felony-murder portion of the statute. As you can see, there is another problem. If they were pursuing a suspect, the suspect was arguably still cmitting the felony. [http://www.lawskills.com/case/ga/id/1789/](http://www.lawskills.com/case/ga/id/1789/). But it would have to be one of the felonies listed in the statute. Of course, the same thing applies to felony murder, because felony murder only applies to dangerous felonies. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942/7 "2005-08-07T04:23:49Z")
I can see a prosecutor arguing that the defendant’s flight caused the police offers’ death pretty easily. There are two remaining questions: 1. Does the defendant’s state of mind meet the mens rea requirement for the crime? The prosecutor will argue that the defendant acted knowing that fleeing police at high speed was likely to injure someone. That’s all the prosecutor has to show. The defendant will argue that he knew that he might injure someone else or himself by fleeing but not the police (irrelevant) or that he didn’t think that fleeing the police at high speed was dangeroud (dubious or unreeasonable). Then the defendant will argue that his conduct was not the proximate cause of the officers’ death. He’ll argue that the officers’ negligent driving was an intervening cause. But by driving fast and fleeing the police, the prosecutor will argue, the defendant should have expected that the officers might be injured. This case suggest that the defendant’s conduct was the proximate cause of the deaths. [http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ks&vol=supct/2000/20001027/&invol=83433](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ks&vol=supct/2000/20001027/&invol=83433)(police negligence is foreseeable). 1. Is the defendant guilty of first degree murder, second degree murder, manslaughter, or some other offense? The defendant can probably only be convicted of first degree murder if he was violating on of the listed laws when he fled. We don’t have enough information to know if he was. In Michigan any murder that is not first degree murder, is second degree murder. For the reasons discussed above, the prosecution probably has a pretty good case. Of course, if a homice isn’t murder, it can still be manslaugher. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter). This would be an even easier case. Finally, Michigan recognizes causing a death while driving fast as negligent homicide. [http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-750-324&queryid=10861975](http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-750-324&queryid=10861975) is automatically included as a charge in any manslaughter case involivng a vehicle. [http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-750-325&queryid=10861975](http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-750-325&queryid=10861975) The prosecutor has a case, if not for murder 1 or 2, then for manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942/8 "2005-08-07T04:40:36Z")
> [@jepflast](#): > > One time I was chatting with UNC’s (University of North Carolina) campus police (incidentally, it was during the filming of the movie Patch Adams), who informed me that they won’t chase suspects/criminals across campus because if the suspect somehow gets hurt during the chase, the police could get sued for damages. While this may indeed be the policy of the UNC campus police, and while IANANCL, I find it hard to believe that a suspect fleeing from police pursuit would prevail in such a suit. First, the suspect’s flight would be contributory to any injury (had s/he stopped running s/he wouldn’t have been hurt). Second, the officers, as agents of the state, could very well have immunity for acts undertaken in the performance of their duties. hard to know without more specific information on NC statute and case law, but I’m pretty confident in calling bullshit on this. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942/9 "2005-08-07T06:18:10Z")
The rationale for the felony murder rule - the precise paramerters of which vary from state to state - is that the felon has set up an inherently dangerous situation and, so, if someone is killed, the felon should be held accountable as if he (or she) had actually murdered that someone. In other words, intent to commit the felony notwithstanding the risk that someone might get killed is deemed sufficient to satisfy the mens rea requirement on the felony murder charge. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942/10 "2005-08-07T12:44:46Z")
This is the case I was trying to cite in my previous post. [http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ks&vol=supct/2000/20001027/&invol=83433](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ks&vol=supct/2000/20001027/&invol=83433) And [Here](http://www.icje.org/id98.htm) is an article that collects cases on liability for injuries that occur as a result of a police chase. Not surprisingly, the courts go out of their way to avoid finding police liable. Here is the part that makes **Otto** ’s point: > [@](#): > > Blair v. City of Rainbow City (1989) presented a different set of facts for the Alabama Supreme Court, however the Court remained consistent in its opinion that the officer’s actions were not the proximate cause of the injury. This case involved a high-speed chase in which the driver of the pursued vehicle was killed when he went off the road. The case presented the issue of whether or not a police officer can be found liable for injuries caused to the offender, rather than to an innocent third party, as was the case in Madison v. Weldon (1984) and Doran v. City of Madison (1988). In its review of this issue, the Court concluded the following: > > If pursuing officers are not responsible for the actions of the offender if the fleeing offender injures a third party, it is only logical to conclude that officers are not responsible for the actions of the fleeing offender when he injures himself… (Blair v. City of Rainbow City, 1989, p. 275). Here is a good survey of police liability from about ten years ago: [http://council.legislature.mi.gov/mlrc/1996/police.htm](http://council.legislature.mi.gov/mlrc/1996/police.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942/11 "2005-08-07T14:48:35Z")
Seems that the sticking point here is “high speed chase.” What makes a chase “high speed”? If I’m on (for example) I-75 in Michigan doing the customary 80 mph (the flow of traffic) and the cops are chasing me, the traffic is normally so congested that I won’t be able to “escape” at all. But if I don’t stop, and merely stay in traffic, am I at the same risk as a worse type of criminal if a policeman dies? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942/12 "2005-08-07T18:54:38Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Seems that the sticking point here is “high speed chase.” What makes a chase “high speed”? If I’m on (for example) I-75 in Michigan doing the customary 80 mph (the flow of traffic) and the cops are chasing me, the traffic is normally so congested that I won’t be able to “escape” at all. But if I don’t stop, and merely stay in traffic, am I at the same risk as a worse type of criminal if a policeman dies? Speeding alone won’t subject you to 1st degree murder liability under the felony- murder statute. And it’s not like shooting into a crowd, which typically would subject you to liability under the depraved heart theory. So you’d be looking at involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide, under the statutes cited above. A conviction for negligent homicide would be pretty easy to get: > [@](#): > > 750.324 Negligent homicide; penalty. > > Sec. 324. > > Any person who, by the operation of any vehicle upon any highway or upon any other property, public or private, at an immoderate rate of speed or in a careless, reckless or negligent manner, but not wilfully or wantonly, shall cause the death of another, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Since you are required to stop for the police, fleeing them at 80 mph could easily be considered an immoderate rate of speed. ---
**Author:** ![AmbushBug](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ambushbug/32/4600_2.png) [@AmbushBug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmbushBug)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942/13 "2005-08-08T04:54:23Z")
There’s the case of Lisl Auman [link](http://talkleft.com/new_archives/010163.html) who was convicted of felony murder for actions her accomplice took, which she herself had been caught and was handcuffed in the back of a police car. The conviction was overturned and she gets a new trial, due to improper jury instructions. ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942/14 "2005-08-08T05:30:15Z")
> [@AmbushBug](#): > > There’s the case of Lisl Auman [link](http://talkleft.com/new_archives/010163.html) who was convicted of felony murder for actions her accomplice took, which she herself had been caught and was handcuffed in the back of a police car. > > The conviction was overturned and she gets a new trial, due to improper jury instructions. [Actually](http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_3920328,00.html), she plead guilty to second-degree burglary and accessory to murder. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2005, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-flee-from-cops-cops-crash-you-are-a-killer/315942/15 "2005-08-08T13:17:51Z")
> [@AmbushBug](#): > > There’s the case of Lisl Auman [link](http://talkleft.com/new_archives/010163.html) who was convicted of felony murder for actions her accomplice took, which she herself had been caught and was handcuffed in the back of a police car. > > The conviction was overturned and she gets a new trial, due to improper jury instructions. The Court clearly held (in the first paragraph of its opinion) that: > [@](#): > > as a matter of law, a defendant’s arrest, by itself, does not terminate a coparticipant’s liability for felony murder when a death occurs at the hands of another participant who remains in flight. Whether a coparticipant’s arrest terminates his or her immediate flight from the commission of the predicate felony while another participant remains in flight is a question for the jury to decide. In this case, the Court holds that the defendant’s liability for felony-murder was properly left to the jury. [http://www.courts.state.co.us/supct/opinions/2002/02SC885.pdf](http://www.courts.state.co.us/supct/opinions/2002/02SC885.pdf) The reason for reversal was that the trial court improperly instructed the jury about theft, which was a predicate crime for felony-murder. The SCOTUS recently held, in a similar vein, that a drug conspiracy does not terminate when the police have seized the drugs and arrested two of the participants–even for those who join the conspiracy after it has been thwarted. [UNITED STATES V. JIMENEZ RECIO](http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/01-1184.ZO.html).