# You fucking rich little TWERP. (Kinda weak rant) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 25, 2004, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304 "2004-03-25T06:37:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/101 "2004-03-29T15:56:09Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > C’mon, if I call a guy who’s stealing stuff a thief, I’m dishing out criticism, but that HARDLY forms the basis for an assault on my character. No, you’re missing the point. If you criticize someone for the car they drive, or for their hairstyle, or whatever, you’d better be able to handle people criticizing your car and your hairstyle. See? > [@](#): > > It’s all about the waste. Yes, and who gets to decide what is “wasteful” _enough?_ I agree with everyone else that $12,000 is appalling for a suit. That’s my personal opinion. But I wouldn’t spout off to that guy and I certainly wouldn’t know where to draw the line between “justifiable” and “wasteful.” Who gets to decide? Is Pepsi Cola wasteful when you can get generic for much cheaper? Does that mean that anyone who buys Pepsi is wasteful and you can dig into them for drinking Pepsi? Well, yeah, I guess you can dig into anyone who buys Pepsi, but you’d be considered an obnoxious, petty boor, now wouldn’t you? So where do we draw the line? Is it Pepsi vs. generic? Or a $12,000 car vs. a $20,000 car? $30,000 car? What exactly is the cut-off point—the exact spot where “justifiable” becomes “wasteful”? Who gets to decide? > [@](#): > > The rich guy is pointing out that he’s wearing 12,000 suits when the othre guy is scraping to get by – maybe his annual income is $12,000. I never disputed that the rich guy was clueless for mentioning his suit budget right in front of someone who was complaining about money woes. Clueless, indeed. That part of the rant is understandable. But then to rant and rave about what this guy spends his money on, and to say what is “justifiable” and what isn’t? That’s a different matter completely. > [@](#): > > C’mon, Yosemitebabe. $12,000 suits? What, were $1,000 suits just NOT GOOD ENOUGH for him? C’mon Evil Captor, Pepsi Cola? Generic wasn’t good enough? Once again, what is the cut-off here? > [@](#): > > And for the record, I also mock collectors of, well, records, baseball, comics, books, and other such stuff for buying crap at ridiculous prices, but you know what? Yeah, I know what. Buying that stuff gives people pleasure, and it’s none of your business. > [@](#): > > Whereas I think a $12,000 suit drops in value the minute it walks out of the store, and especially if you go commando in it a couple of times. You are entitled to your opinion, and for the record I agree that $12,000 is too much for a suit, but it still isn’t any of your business. And it has nothing to do with you or me or anyone else. The OP took this guy’s spending habits to heart and carried on about how “unjustified” such spending is. But that’s not his call to make because it wasn’t his money to spend. > [@](#): > > Oh, but it does. In anything but a growing economy, when someone else grabs a bigger piece of the pie, everybody has to make do with a smaller piece. That’s what’s wrong with the U.S. economy right now… the rich people are grabbing too much of the pie. And so what do you want to do? Bitch and complain and fuss over how _other_ people spend their money? Would you like it better if they spent more money buying _your_ stuff? Would that make it all fair to you? Or spent in in just the way _you_ see fit? > [@](#): > > We’ve got too many folks who are willing to ignore social injustice and inequality 'round here. So what do you want? So where do you draw the line, once again? Is it social injustice to spend too much money on Pepsi? Or at Starbucks? Or on computers? Or porn? Why don’t you give me a detailed list, with dollar amounts, of what purchases you deem “justifiable” and what is “socially unacceptable.” Please. Give me a list. I wait to be enlightened. > [@](#): > > Like most poor and middle class people, I blow all my money on food, shelter and clothing every fucking month. It’s disgustamating. But you’ve got a computer. Is it an ancient 486 or something newer? You do know that you could get along with a cheap ancient 486, right? Or better yet, sell your computer, ditch your ISP and use the library to get on the Internet. Or better yet still, just ditch the Internet completely. A lot of _really_ poor people don’t have access to computers. They live in a van by the river. How _wasteful_ and _unjustified_ your extravagant spending habits are! > [@](#): > > Plus, at $15 or $20 a pop, I’m not breaking anybody’s bank account. 😛 And the rich guy was breaking into _someone else’s_ banking account to buy his suits? No, it was his own banking account. And the people who charged the amount they charged for the suits weren’t forcing anyone to buy them either. Besides, how do you know that some of your clients aren’t compulsive buyers, buying too much art? Maybe they’ve got a garage-full of extravagant, “wasteful,” “unjustified” stuff. So they don’t need the stuff you sell—they could be spending the money in a much more prudent manner. So how dare you take money from them! ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/102 "2004-03-29T17:11:57Z")
I never understand the “Piece of the pie” statements. Is there some absolute portion of the economy that is distributed about to everybody, and once it is all taken, there is nothing left? So all the rich people are taking your chances of making money? Is that what this is all about? Woe is me, I cannot make any decent money because everybody has taken it first!! The fact that this rich person is spending his money on 12,000 dollar suits instead of having it in his bank rotting should mean more to you than anything. The money is flowing, and is not a “piece of pie.” ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/103 "2004-03-29T21:12:57Z")
> [@](#): > > When my dad was in college, he got in a frat to try and network (seeing as how he was an orphan with two pairs of pants to his name and wanted to be a doctor). One of the guys there was the kid of someone who owned a chain of retail stores. He got a box of new, clean, very expensive clothes every week from his parents. The reason for this being that he didn’t “believe” in doing laundry. So instead of cleaning his clothes, or even taking them home to have them cleaned for his sorry lazy ass, he just threw them away. My dad suggested giving them to charity once, and the guy took offense because poor people shouldn’t be able to dress that well. He washed out of school, and a few years later out of life, owing to myriad addictions his parents financed for him. I need closure on this. **laigle** tell me how your own dad turned out. Is he a doctor? Is there a happy ending? ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/104 "2004-03-29T22:35:16Z")
For those people who question how anyone could spend 12k on clothes, what the guy actually said was “the _stuff I wear_ on a daily basis is 12k”…which leads me to think he has an expensive watch. He didn’t specifically say clothes, and high end watches can easily be 12k. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/105 "2004-03-29T23:06:51Z")
Expensive watch or slipped digit, my thought too. Hard to do $12,000 in casual clothes (gold plated underwear?). Not hard to do $1200 in clothes or $12000 in “stuff I wear” if you include jewelry - particularly watches. On the cluelessness…yes, clueless. But it isn’t hard to have no concept - especially if you are young and you’ve never really needed to pay attention to how much anything costs. I remember making $3.35 an hour in college, and my little sister, still in high school, bothering my mother for $6 socks. To my sister, who hadn’t worked a day in her life yet, and had not real concept of money, $6 was just $6 from what was my parents apparently limitless supply of money (in her view - in truth it was limited - but she couldn’t conceive of such a thing). To me, it was two hours plus (after taxes) of work for me. ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/106 "2004-03-30T00:42:21Z")
> [@Shirley Ujest](#): > > I need closure on this. **laigle** tell me how your own dad turned out. Is he a doctor? Is there a happy ending? Oh yeah. Of course he’s pretty busy since he allows in uninsured patients, but that’s the price of not being in it for the money. ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/107 "2004-03-30T00:52:57Z")
> [@yosemitebabe](#): > > No, you’re missing the point. If you criticize someone for the car they drive, or for their hairstyle, or whatever, you’d better be able to handle people criticizing your car and your hairstyle. I call bullshit on this whole rich bastard wankfest. Greed and wastefulness were considered immoral long before this OP came around. The twit was not being criticized for being rich, so quit trying to convince yourself you’re an aggrieved minority. He was being criticized for not knowing the value of a dollar, and for pissing away perfectly good money. And people NEED to be criticized for those things, because they are not only aggravating to the unwashed peasants, they are moral failures. They do make you a bad person. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/108 "2004-03-30T01:12:28Z")
Kudos, **laigle**. More generally, it is entirely valid to address matters of continuity within a moral framework. For example, although we are all wasteful/sinful/tardy/whatever to some extent, it is no defense for the extremely wasteful/sinful/tardy/whatever to point out that others share their characteristic as well. Quantitative differences matter. Double-parking is not the same as doing 80 in a 25 mph zone, although both are illegal. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/109 "2004-03-30T02:28:26Z")
> [@laigle](#): > > Greed and wastefulness were considered immoral long before this OP came around. And everyone’s idea of greed and wastefulness varies, depending on who you are, and the people who surround you. So? Are you the final say on what exactly is too greedy and too wasteful? You gonna decide for everyone else where that line is drawn? > [@](#): > > The twit was not being criticized for being rich, so quit trying to convince yourself you’re an aggrieved minority. Wait a minute, wait a minute . . . you are implying that _I’m_ an aggrieved minority? Like, you think I’m a rich person? Me, the one who still drives a 1987 Dodge? Me, who has never, even at my best, been rich, and right now is not rich at all? This issue matters to me and it hits close to home for me because I’ve been criticized for buying too many jeans at Sears. I’ve seen my dad (who worked at the Post Office all his life) criticized for buying too many damned books. Sure, he always drove old cars and we lived in a modest house, but _damn_, he spent too much money on books! How _wasteful!_ You think that this kind of mindset only is directed at rich people? You’re wrong. It gets directed at everyone. Because no matter how “poor” you think you are, you are “rich” in someone else’s eyes. This kind of behavior and thinking is petty and boorish, and it’s best not to go down that road. > [@](#): > > He was being criticized for not knowing the value of a dollar, and for pissing away perfectly good money. And yet again, I ask: what _is_ the definition of “pissing away” money, anyway? Can you tell me precisely what that is? My dad left about (I estimate) 3,000 Classical LPs. He bought them at their regular retail price, none of them were expensive on their own, but he loved Classical music and he just kept on buying and buying. (And listening and listening—he loved that collection and got a lot out of it.) So, is 3,000 records “pissing away” money? Do you begrudge him that? Are all his books, or the grand piano he bought my mom “pissing away” money? > [@](#): > > And people NEED to be criticized for those things, And people certainly have criticized my family for my dad’s “pissing away” money on books and records. Because in their worldview, that was a terrible waste. Are you going to chime in and agree? How many books are _too_ many books? Can you tell me? What is the **exact amount** that is too much to pay for a book? Or a purse? Or a car? > [@](#): > > because they are not only aggravating to the unwashed peasants, Oh, I get that. I’ve seen that. My dad’s books were “aggravating” to those who didn’t think books were important. But what would you have my dad do? Not buy any books? Not buy as many? Was he obligated to buy things to please his neighbors? (Boy, that grand piano sure pissed off the neighbors, I can tell you . . . ) > [@](#): > > they are moral failures. They do make you a bad person. There aren’t enough eye rollies for this one. By your criteria, we’re all bad people and we’re all moral failures. We sit here, comfy, with electricity and an Internet connection. We probably live in a house or apartment. We probably have more than one set of clothes. And that’s far more than many people get by on. And they _know_ that we have computers, and they _know_ that we have houses, or cars, and they don’t. Isn’t that terribly aggravating to them? You drive down the street in your car, and there are people who have no cars. You are _waving_ your car in their face. You are a bad person. > [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Quantitative differences matter. Double-parking is not the same as doing 80 in a 25 mph zone, although both are illegal. So I want you to give me an _exact_ amount that is too much to spend for a: 1. car. 2. pair of jeans. 3. package of hot dogs. 4. computer. I also want you to tell me whether or not it is justifiable or wasteful to have a record or CD collection that is larger than: 1. 10 CDs 2. 50 CDs 3. 100 CDs And let’s try this: Is someone “justified” in spending money on: 1. porn. 2. popcorn. 3. European vacation. 4. extra vehicle. 5. iPod. 6. portable DVD player. What _kinds_ of items are “justifiable” and which items are “wasteful” and an example of “pissing away money”? Can you tell me, specifically, which things are okay to buy, and which items make you a “bad person” if you spend money on them? Please. Tell me which. Unlike your speed limit analogy, which has a strict, definite number value, I’d say that you’d be hard-pressed to find anyone who can agree on which items are “wasteful” and which are not, on how much is too much to pay for something, or how many shoes are too many shoes, how many cars are too many cars, and so forth. So, unless you can give me a detailed list authorized by some central group that speaks for **all of us** , defining where that line exists between “just wants” and “pissing away money,” then you’re just spouting off your opinion. And if you feel entitled to pass judgment on someone else for paying “too much” (in your opinion) for something, then you deserve the same sort of scrutiny and criticism yourself. For how much you spend on lunch, for what kind of car you drive, how much you spend on entertainment, and so forth. Now, since I’ve already been on the receiving end of that kind of criticism, I have to say that I don’t much care for it. It sucks to have someone bitch at you for your clothes, or your collection of CDs, or whatever. It sucks to have someone get all bent out of shape and begrudge you enjoying stuff that you bought with **your own damned money**. As if what you feel is important, and what you enjoy, is somehow _taking away something from them._ Like you can’t buy stuff for yourself, but you always have to think about _them_, and pass it by them first to make sure that your own buying choices “pass muster.” And that sucks. Since I know how much it sucks to be treated like that, I’m doing my best to not dish that kind of treatment out to others. And while I’m on this little prolonged rant, I have a tangental (but related) point to make. I got people getting _pissed_ at me or my family for our buying choices, even though it had nothing to do with them. Their attitudes were strikingly similar to the people I’ve know, who, for whatever reason, were _pissed_ that I could draw. I had one friend who would literally _seethe_ when I pulled out my sketchbook to doodle in front of her. It was almost like she thought I was slapping her in the face because I could do something that she couldn’t do. Like I was insulting her. But what the hell was I supposed to do? Not draw at all? Only draw at carefully orchestrated times, in order to not offend _her?_ How much of our lives and our behaviors do we need to adjust in order to not be considered a “bad person”? Can’t we just enjoy what we enjoy without always having to worry about how some completely unrelated, unaffected third party is going to get all **pissed** at us because we have had good fortune? ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/110 "2004-03-30T02:50:25Z")
> [@yosemitebabe](#): > > Are you the final say on what exactly is too greedy and too wasteful? You gonna decide for everyone else where that line is drawn? When the question at hand is who will be criticized by me? Yes, that’s right, I am! Congratulations, you’ve figured it out! I make my own decisions about what I deem moral and immoral. And no amount of idiotic drivel from you will be changing that. Now go call Rush up and have him come up with a new comeback line for you, since forming your own ideas is such an alien concept. When the question is what you think, or what society at large is going to sanction, you can have a say. Till then, go fuck yourself. Nobody suggested throwing him in jail. They suggested he was a bad person. You don’t get to tell us we can’t think that. Oh, and since you mentioned it, yes, we are all moral failures. Some of us more than others though, which is the part you’re incapable of grasping. And once again, as far as my criticism is concerned, I get to decide the terms of that scale. Ain’t life a bitch? ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/111 "2004-03-30T03:14:39Z")
> [@laigle](#): > > When the question at hand is who will be criticized by me? Yes, that’s right, I am! Congratulations, you’ve figured it out! Yeah, you have that right. I never said you didn’t. I merely said it was petty and boorish. Oh yeah, I guess that’s _my_ opinion. > [@](#): > > I make my own decisions about what I deem moral and immoral. And so does everyone else. About _your_ attitude. > [@](#): > > And no amount of idiotic drivel from you will be changing that. And I notice that you dodge the issue. You think that we all should condemn those who we think are “wasteful”? Well, we’re all wasteful. So I guess that means that we all can piss in each others cornflakes all damned day long, all of us begrudging someone else who is the teensiest bit better off than we are, or someone whose priorities are more towards new cars instead of more CDs, and won’t life be grand? Won’t that make our world ever so much better, to all be petty and bitter and jealous with each others possessions? To feel _morally entitled_ to pass judgment on each and every person who doesn’t adhere to our own strict idea of what is right? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Now go call Rush up and have him come up with a new comeback line for you, since forming your own ideas is such an alien concept. Another weak attempt to side-step the issue. And another assumption about where I’m coming from. First you assume that I’m rich (I probably own a far crappier car than you do—doesn’t make me morally superior than you?), and now this. I got this idea from my _own experience_, which I have specifically laid out repeatedly many times. Shocking, isn’t it, that I can form opinions from my own life? > [@](#): > > Nobody suggested throwing him in jail. No, what you’re suggesting is that it’s morally right and okay to be a bitter, petty person who begrudges someone else something that has _nothing_ to do with you. And when you sanction that kind of behavior, you deserve to get the same kind of bitterness directed right back at you. Enjoy. You asked for it. Speaking for myself, I hope that if I don’t dish it out, I won’t have to take it. I’ve taken enough as it is, thank you. > [@](#): > > They suggested he was a bad person. [You don’t get to tell us we can’t think that. You can think whatever you want, honey. And **I** can think you’re bitter, petty, and possibly jealous for thinking it. And once again, I can think that you definitely deserve to have someone else piss in your cornflakes on a regular basis. Because hey—you dish it out, you deserve to get it back, right? > [@](#): > > Oh, and since you mentioned it, yes, we are all moral failures. Some of us more than others though, which is the part you’re incapable of grasping. Once again, missing the point. Why am I not surprised? There are always ranges of “wasteful,” but since no one can agree on where the line is, that means that pretty much _everyone_ is evil and wasteful (in someone else’s worldview) which I suppose means that we all should make each other miserable, right? How dandy. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2004, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/112 "2004-03-30T03:18:44Z")
> [@laigle](#): > > When the question is what you think, or what society at large is going to sanction, you can have a say. Till then, go fuck yourself. Nobody suggested throwing him in jail. They suggested he was a bad person. You don’t get to tell us we can’t think that. > > Oh, and since you mentioned it, yes, we are all moral failures. Some of us more than others though, which is the part you’re incapable of grasping. From the OP: > [@](#): > > And I know he’s gone and donated thousands to Childrens Hospitals before with his family… Looks to me like the “bad person” in the OP has, with one stroke of his pen, already done more good for the needy that you are ever likely to do in your entire life. How exactly then is he a “moral failure”? Because he hasn’t given as much as he potentially could give? Well, neither have you, and neither have I. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t indulge in something that couldn’t be classified as an “unnecessary indulgence”. I know middle-class people who own horses, boats, and RVs; they cost considerably more than $12,000 dollars. I know middle-class people who regularly go on expensive vacations. Are these people automatically “bad people” because they didn’t donate that money to charity? Who decides how much of a person’s income must be given away to others in order for that person to avoid the label of “greedy and selfish”? ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/113 "2004-03-30T03:35:45Z")
> [@laigle](#): > > Ain’t life a bitch? I don’t know about life, but you sure are. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/114 "2004-03-30T03:40:44Z")
> [@Libertarian](#): > > Of course you will. It’s what you coveted all along. Jesus fucking Christ, Lib! I have to agree–in this thread you’re being even more of an asshole than usual. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2004, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/115 "2004-03-30T07:25:49Z")
**Yosemitebabe** makes a mix of decent and not-so-decent arguments. Let’s start with the wheat. If somebody brings up my father’s moral failings, it puts me in an awkward position. Firstly, I’m not sure what I’m supposed to do about it. Secondly, it is likely that I know more of the relevant details regarding my Dad’s transgression (littering, say) than does the finger-wagger. Thirdly, I have been put into a moral quandary of my own, where I must weigh familial loyalties against upholding social standards. Furthermore, if my Father had passed away, the preceding is magnified. So methinks that some of **yosemitebabe** ’s acquaintances lack discretion, from the sounds of it. Hey, I’ve made social errors too. ------ And if you feel entitled to pass judgment on someone else for paying “too much” (in your opinion) for something, then you deserve the same sort of scrutiny and criticism yourself. For how much you spend on lunch, for what kind of car you drive, how much you spend on entertainment, and so forth. Yes. But I deserve _exactly_ the same sort of scrutiny that I dish out. Since, I wasn’t asking to go through Mr. 12000’s receipts, he can’t go through mine. Mr. 12000 is welcome to chat with me about why I purchased a Dell Dimension rather than a cheaper locally built machine (or an Optiplex for that matter). It won’t do, however, to equate spending, say $200,000 per year on personal items, as opposed to something closer to the average. They simply aren’t in the same ballpark. > [@](#): > > So I want you to give me an exact amount that is too much to spend for a: 1) car. 2) pair of jeans. 3) package of hot dogs. 4) computer. 1. I’m afraid that we have a communication problem. Please let me know _exactly_ the point in the color spectrum where red is separated from orange. You can’t, and I can’t, because we’re discussing a continuity. There are lots of cases where categories (and characteristics) can be reasonably discussed without worrying about bright lines. There may be no bright line between a “tall”, “medium” and “short” person, but that in no way invalidates the categories themselves. That’s the point about continuity that I was trying to make. 1. Thinking sensibly, what is “too much to spend” depends upon context. I will spend more on food when I’m working a 50+ hour week than when I have the time to fix my meals. Your average tycoon can probably get away with wearing a Brooks Brothers suit, but not if he’s in advertising: when flash is called for, other brands may be prudent. 2. I could probably come up with a methodology for answering your question, but yosemite-babe was speaking by way of illustration anyway, so I won’t. * * * > [@](#): > > Now, since I’ve already been on the receiving end of that kind of criticism, I have to say that I don’t much care for it. It sucks to have someone bitch at you for your clothes, or your collection of CDs, or whatever. It sucks to have someone get all bent out of shape and begrudge you enjoying stuff that you bought with **your own damned money**. As if what you feel is important, and what you enjoy, is somehow taking away something from them. Like you can’t buy stuff for yourself, but you always have to think about them, and pass it by them first to make sure that your own buying choices “pass muster.” And that sucks. > > Since I know how much it sucks to be treated like that, I’m doing my best to not dish that kind of treatment out to others. …How much of our lives and our behaviors do we need to adjust in order to not be considered a “bad person”? I’m not sure what I think of all that. But let me hone in on the last sentence. I don’t fear moral judgment: I welcome it. If you want to discuss whether my behavior has been prudent or well-considered, by all means, let’s do that. [Note: Make direct eye contact when saying this. Don’t get defensive. Pose lots of questions. (“Do you think that’s reasonable?”) Widen your eyes slightly, on occasion. At other times, narrow them into slits. Cock an eyebrow.] I can handle moral judgment. What trips me up is resentment, which necessarily bypasses rational discourse. I’m guessing that Yosemitebabe has overlapping concerns. All the same, if your actions have consequences, then they are likely to have a moral dimension. To pretend otherwise is amoral, immoral, or nonutilitarian. I think this post is long enough for now. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2004, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/116 "2004-03-30T07:59:40Z")
----- There are always ranges of “wasteful,” but since no one can agree on where the line is, that means that pretty much everyone is evil and wasteful (in someone else’s worldview) which I suppose means that we all should make each other miserable, right? That POV reeks of moral relativism. There are always ranges of immorality, some acts are worse than others, and none of this should stop us from condemning those who act egregiously or recognizing worse acts where they exist. Still, **yosemitebabe** has put her finger on a classic problem with utilitarianism: while it identifies better or worse moral actions, it is a poor indicator of moral adequacy. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2004, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/117 "2004-03-30T08:03:33Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > I have to agree–in this thread you’re being even more of an asshole than usual. Hmm… I \*thought \* I saw a razor blade in that welcome basket. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2004, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/118 "2004-03-30T08:40:50Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > **Yosemitebabe** makes a mix of decent and not-so-decent arguments. Let’s start with the wheat. > > If somebody brings up my father’s moral failings, it puts me in an awkward position. Firstly, I’m not sure what I’m supposed to do about it. Secondly, it is likely that I know more of the relevant details regarding my Dad’s transgression (littering, say) than does the finger-wagger. Thirdly, I have been put into a moral quandary of my own, where I must weigh familial loyalties against upholding social standards. All very good points and definitely an issue. But moreover, it comes down to someone judging my dad based on their own values. Some people don’t value books. They hardly have any books in their house. So, to see someone have literally a whole wall—floor to ceiling—of just books, is appalling to them. Because they don’t get that much out of books. But does that mean that the person who _does_ get a whole lot out of books is a “bad” person? > [@](#): > > So methinks that some of **yosemitebabe** ’s acquaintances lack discretion, from the sounds of it. Hey, I’ve made social errors too. Yes, that’s definitely part of it. I don’t particularly give a shit what people think in their heart of hearts, but when they bitch about it to _me_ (whether it be my spending or my dad’s spending), then that’s a different matter. > [@](#): > > Yes. But I deserve _exactly_ the same sort of scrutiny that I dish out. Since, I wasn’t asking to go through Mr. 12000’s receipts, he can’t go through mine. Mr. 12000 is welcome to chat with me about why I purchased a Dell Dimension rather than a cheaper locally built machine (or an Optiplex for that matter). And as long as you don’t resent his tone (keeping in mind that his tone is similar to your own) then you’re all fine. If he thinks you’re intrusive and is intrusive back, and you don’t mind, well, that’s not so much of a problem for you, but it is a problem for him. Perhaps he doesn’t want you asking intrusive or judgmental questions about his spending habits. Perhaps he doesn’t think it’s your business. Not everyone’s life is an open book, you know. > [@](#): > > It won’t do, however, to equate spending, say $200,000 per year on personal items, as opposed to something closer to the average. They simply aren’t in the same ballpark. No, they aren’t, which makes condemning someone for spending $200,000 seemingly so much easier. But we still come down to the where we draw the line, and who draws it, and what is the best and most appropriate way to express it. > [@](#): > > There may be no bright line between a “tall”, “medium” and “short” person, but that in no way invalidates the categories themselves. That’s the point about continuity that I was trying to make. And yet each person’s opinion will vary. “Tall” may mean something different in an area where the average person is 5’ 6". And if you come from an area where the average is 5’ 9" and you try to tell someone else who is not from that area that they are too tall or not tall enough, you’re going to have difficulty. Because the standards differ depending on who surrounds you. > [@](#): > > Thinking sensibly, what is “too much to spend” depends upon context. And there are a variety of contexts, and also people’s preferences, quirks, private feelings, and so forth. And perhaps it’s not your business to decide what is “too much” for someone else when they are merely spending their own money in the way they prefer. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what I think of all that. But let me hone in on the last sentence. I don’t fear moral judgment: I welcome it. If you want to discuss whether my behavior has been prudent or well-considered, by all means, let’s do that. And there is a way to do that if it’s a pressing concern. For instance, if someone wants to throw away an old used computer and you think that they could donate it to the homeless shelter, by all means, make a suggestion. Or if they ask for your input, then by all means, give it. But if they enjoy what they are buying and seem to get something from it, and they aren’t hurting you, then perhaps keeping your mouth shut is appropriate, unless you see a pressing, immediate concern (like a particular homeless shelter needing a computer right now). Way back in this thread I brought up my sister, who bought a $500 ring, which appalled me. I’d never spend money like that and it seemed like such a frivolity to me. I am still a little taken aback that she’d spend money like that, but I never intend to utter one question about it, or to criticize her (or even mildly inquire) about why she bought that ring or whether or not the money could be better spent. Because that ring brought enjoyment to her, and she worked honestly for the money that paid for that ring. And I have no intention of raining on her parade or ruining her enjoyment. I’ve also thought on occasion about these ultra-rich people who spend scads of money on the “finer things of life” like expensive art, fancy designer clothes, and so forth, and I’ve decided that unless they are apathetic, dull, bored people who don’t remotely enjoy the stuff they buy, then I’m really happy for them. I can sew a little and I can appreciate a well-designed garment perhaps a little more than most people. When I want to splurge I’ll pay the Big Bucks for a Vogue Designer Pattern (woo!) and let me tell you, I can appreciate the subtle details and elegant cut of some of these patterns. They are really nice. So, even if I can never afford a designer outfit, I’m glad that someone can afford them and I’m glad that someone out there gets paid to design and make such beautiful things. Same goes for the expensive paintings and houses and yachts. A lot of these items are created by people not unlike me—people who create things—and I’m glad that someone is paying these people for making lovely things. I will add one other thing, though: when I see someone who doesn’t even _remotely_ appreciate the beatiful things they buy, then yeah, I have to say that it bothers me. But it isn’t really a matter of how much they spent on that thing, it’s just that I believe that we should all appreciate the things we have. If I give someone one of my hand-made mugs, for instance, and they don’t understand why it’s special and prefer to use K-Mart slipcast mugs, well, I personally won’t feel like giving them any more of my mugs. And even though I realize that it’s _none of my business_, I admit that it would bother me if some rich millionaire bought a whole lot of my mugs, but never used them, never enjoyed them and didn’t give a shit about them. But once again, that’s not about the money spent. I’d be just as upset if an equally poor coworker didn’t appreciate one of my mugs. (And even with that admission, I can see that it would be hard to decide what was appreciative _enough_? It gets so complicated, that’s for sure!) > [@](#): > > I can handle moral judgment. I think most of us can, and should. But it depends on why the moral judgment is given. When it comes to spending money, I think that we color our judgments with our own personal preferences and hang-ups. And so we get situations like the non-book fan judging the person who loves books **A LOT** , and trying to tell them that they are **bad** because they buy “too many” books. And that’s not really productive, now is it? > [@](#): > > What trips me up is resentment, which necessarily bypasses rational discourse. I’m guessing that Yosemitebabe has overlapping concerns. Yes, yes, yes, you definitely bring up a huge issue. Rarely do people start in with these judgments without some underlying resentment. I think that usually we can tell when someone’s judgment is touched with more than a bit of resentment, and I think that it’s an element with the OP, and with many, _many_ people. > [@](#): > > All the same, if your actions have consequences, then they are likely to have a moral dimension. To pretend otherwise is amoral, immoral, or nonutilitarian. But in the case of spending money, it’s not so easy to _know_ that someone else’s spending is _wrong._ If someone buys a $1,000 painting from me, for instance, are they extravagant and bad? I mean, think about it—$1,000 for a piece of stretched canvas. But what if I desperately need that money? What if I donate half of that money to some worthy charity, or hire someone less well off than me to paint my house? We never really know where the money may end up (unless we’re buying drugs or giving money to a wino ;)) so even if one person spends it on something “frivolous,” the person they give the money to may not. I guess another reason I feel as strongly about this is _because_ I create “nice things” that can be expensive and can be deemed “frivolous.” Some of the people who have paid me for my work have been pretty well off. Where would I be if there weren’t rich people in the world to buy my art? I see in preview: Lib, stop. Stop now. Stop stop stop stop. Please. Stop. That was way over the line. Please take a rest. Stop stop stop. Please. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2004, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/119 "2004-03-30T08:45:30Z")
Lib, not being nasty, but is there anywhere I could see some of your art? I really am interested and I would not dare attempt to criticize it. I would just like to see it. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2004, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304/120 "2004-03-30T08:51:33Z")
askeptic, did you mean me? I don’t recall Lib talking about art. In case you mean me, you can check out the site in my profile or go to my [Geocities site.](http://www.geocities.com/yosem_babe) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-fucking-rich-little-twerp-kinda-weak-rant/236304.md?page=7)