# You gotta be shitting me! \[Christmas music\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 12, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137 "2006-11-12T19:32:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/41 "2006-11-13T02:52:29Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] I found out on on November 10 that [WMYX](http://www.99wmyx.com/) in Milwaukee has already switched it’s format over to 24 hours of Chrismas music. [/QUOTE] We’ve got stores in the Houston area that have had Christmas decorations up and music playing since the day after Labor Day. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/42 "2006-11-13T03:00:26Z")
My office Christmas party is this Saturday. November 18. And it’s not some “Holiday Celebration”, either–it’s a full-on Christmas Party, with Santa Claus and everything. I’m not going, out of principle. I wrote this last year [at my blog](http://thejtrain.typepad.com/the_j_train/2005/11/this_far_and_no.html) (when I was bitching about last year’s office Christmas Party, on November 19): > [@](#): > > When it becomes OK to have a Christmas party or play Christmas music before Thanksgiving, it’s time to form a guerilla protest group to fuck shit up. It’ll be my own Weather Underground or Symbionese Liberation Army, except we won’t actually kill people or kidnap heiresses; instead, we’ll take wire cutters to early Christmas lights, blast airhorns over early Christmas music, and throw buckets of black paint on anyone dressed as Santa before Thanksgiving. We wouldn’t have to do very much–just enough to send a message that _this shit stops now_. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/43 "2006-11-13T03:07:09Z")
[QUOTE=Rilchiam] Do you also refuse to visit **St.** Louis, **San** Diego, and Los **Angeles**? These “Jesusy” songs that I like are generations old. Millions of people have listened to them without being coerced into abandoning their own religion, or even feeling insulted. This notion that one cannot be true to one’s own beliefs unless everyone else suppresses theirs is a very new concept. Playing “Silent Night” on a store PA system is not sending a message. If you choose to find a message in it and be offended, that’s on you. [/QUOTE] Considering that I’m a native Angeleno (third generation, no less), the names of cities do not offend, and are often reflective of the history of those cities. My parents live in San Antonio, in fact, and I visit them regularly. So let’s not be stupid there, okay? Look. If you want to hear that music, knock yourself out. I choose not to, and that is my privilege. To tell me that “millions” have heard it without feeling coerced or insulted is meaningless. I am not one of those millions. I am one person who does feel unwelcome and unwanted, if not outright insulted. So I take my money and walk, as I am entitled to do. Robin ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/44 "2006-11-13T03:08:41Z")
> [@](#): > > First, it isn’t the ultra-PC brigade that determines the appropriateness of music, it’s a business decision. Very few stores want to risk offending anyone who wishes to spend money there, so they keep the music seasonal but not religious. Not to mention that they want to set the appropriate tone. “Angels We Have Heard on High” is likely to put people in the mindset of peace on earth, goodwill towards men, celebrating the birth of the saviour of the world, etc. Doesn’t exactly move the merchandise. “Santa Baby”–now there’s a message. You got a hot woman at home, buddy. She wants stuff, and we’ve got tons of it at low, low prices. Other songs about Santa are there to remind you that you’ve let your kids believe this whole “Santa” thing, and now they’re going to expect loot under the tree. So they’re not really being sensitive to anyone. They just want to make sure that your religious sensibilities don’t get in the way of the spending orgy. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/45 "2006-11-13T03:12:57Z")
[QUOTE=DoctorJ] . . .we won’t actually kill people or kidnap heiresses. . . [/quote] Well then, screw it. If I don’t get to kill anyone, at the very least, then I won’t join. I’ll just stay grumpy and pissy. Which is frightfully similar to how I am ordinarily. And I was _so_ looking forward to killing someone this holiday season. Upside being that it’s still early. So I continue to dream. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/46 "2006-11-13T03:17:02Z")
[QUOTE=Rilchiam] Playing “Silent Night” on a store PA system is not sending a message. [/QUOTE] I beg to differ. And I don’t usually bitch too much about the incessant Christmas songs that get played just before the holidays. But when they start on November first, I get a little testy. YM, it appears obvious, Vs considerably. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/47 "2006-11-13T03:32:08Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] I beg to differ. And I don’t usually bitch too much about the incessant Christmas songs that get played just before the holidays. But when they start on November first, I get a little testy. YM, it appears obvious, Vs considerably. [/QUOTE] Try responding to what I actually posted. I was talking about the song itself, not when it gets played. **DoctorJ** , good point. **MsRobyn** , I don’t think I am being stupid. That’s the point I was trying to make: these cities were given their names long ago, and history can’t be changed, nor should it be. Similarly, I don’t think Franz Gruber wrote Silent Night in order to oppress Jews. Go ahead and be offended, but I think you’re looking under stones. Actually, I’m curious: when has Christmas (not general Christian, but specifically Christmas) symbolism and music been used as a weapon to ostracize and hurt? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/48 "2006-11-13T03:38:16Z")
And yet people wonder why I live here. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/49 "2006-11-13T03:45:38Z")
[QUOTE=Rilchiam] Try responding to what I actually posted. I was talking about the song itself, not when it gets played. [/quote] I did. Try responding to what I actually posted. If you don’t believe that playing “Silent Night” (a song, by the by, that I think is quite lovely) isn’t “sending a message”, then there’s precious little that you’re likely to understand. At least about Christmas music. And the “Jesusy” aspects of same. As to the early playing of Christmas music, well, it appears that has been gone over quite satisfactorily. And I, too, think that **DoctorJ** makes a good point about getting people to buy into the frenzied spending that the season all but requires. > [@](#): > > Actually, I’m curious: when has Christmas (not general Christian, but specifically Christmas) symbolism and music been used as a weapon to ostracize and hurt? I don’t believe that it’s been used thusly very often. At least historically. Of late, with Bill O’Reilly and his asinine “War against the War against Christmas” nonsense, well, it’s been used that way in my area as recently as last year. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/50 "2006-11-13T03:48:28Z")
[QUOTE=hajario] I have a collection of Charlie Brown cartoons from the 1950’s. In one that was published in late October, Charlie went to buy a Halloween costume and couldn’t find one because they were putting up all of the xmas stuff. [/QUOTE] That particular strip was run not too long ago. Origninal printing was in 1959 and I think the date was 28 October. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/51 "2006-11-13T03:49:09Z")
[QUOTE=MsRobyn] I am one person who does feel unwelcome and unwanted, if not outright insulted. Robin [/QUOTE] If anyone is truly insulted by Christmas music, that’s sad and pathetic, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/52 "2006-11-13T03:54:08Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] I did. Try responding to what I actually posted. If you don’t believe that playing “Silent Night” (a song, by the by, that I think is quite lovely) isn’t “sending a message”, then there’s precious little that you’re likely to understand. At least about Christmas music. And the “Jesusy” aspects of same. [/quote] You didn’t make yourself clear. You didn’t mention the “Jesusy” aspects; you said you didn’t like hearing it on November 1st. I understand that SN is a Christian song. However, I think the “message” is subtle enough that it’s not on a par with witnessing to someone. I can separate the “message” from the aesthetic enjoyment of the song. If others can’t, then they just can’t, but I think there’s a big difference between going into a store and hearing SN on the loudspeaker and going into a doctor’s office and finding a pray-TV show playing in the waiting room. People have complained in the Pit before about public school Christmas programs being watered down to “holiday programs” and such. How is this different? > [@](#): > > I don’t believe that it’s been used thusly very often. At least historically. Of late, with Bill O’Reilly and his asinine “War against the War against Christmas” nonsense, well, it’s been used that way in my area as recently as last year. I wonder who really shot first. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/53 "2006-11-13T04:13:30Z")
[QUOTE=Rilchiam] I understand that SN is a Christian song. However, I think the “message” is subtle enough that it’s not on a par with witnessing to someone. [/quote] Witnessing to? No. I don’t think it’s on par, either. It does, however, send a message. How subtle this message is depends, I suppose, on the listener. Sounds like **MsRobyn** , though, detects it as well. Maybe that has to do with my apathy toward the season and all aspects of same. > [@](#): > > I can separate the “message” from the aesthetic enjoyment of the song. As can I. As I already stated, I think it’s a lovely song. Particularly when sung in German. > [@](#): > > . . .I think there’s a big difference between going into a store and hearing SN on the loudspeaker and going into a doctor’s office and finding a pray-TV show playing in the waiting room. So, for that matter, do I. I fail to see, though, where anyone made that comparison. > [@](#): > > People have complained in the Pit before about public school Christmas programs being watered down to “holiday programs” and such. How is this different? Offhand, I can say that public schools cater to groups aside from Christians, thereby making obvious the need to make “Christmas” programs a bit more inclusive. Those who kvetch about this seem to be pissing and moaning that their religion isn’t acknowledged as the primary one. In other words, they seem to want to achieve professional status as martyrs. Bad form. To my eyes anyway. > [@](#): > > I wonder who really shot first. Rest assured, it was O’Reilly. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/54 "2006-11-13T04:25:16Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] So, for that matter, do I. I fail to see, though, where anyone made that comparison. [/quote] **MsRobyn** reacts to “Jesusy” songs in a store the way I would react to pray-TV in a waiting room. So I made the comparison. > [@](#): > > Offhand, I can say that public schools cater to groups aside from Christians, thereby making obvious the need to make “Christmas” programs a bit more inclusive. Those who kvetch about this seem to be pissing and moaning that their religion isn’t acknowledged as the primary one. In other words, they seem to want to achieve professional status as martyrs. Bad form. To my eyes anyway. It’s not inclusiveness that bothers me. It’s the schools that forbid “Jesusy” music entirely, and don’t acknowledge other religions **either** , and have to fall back on making it all about snow. I don’t see how two wrongs make a right. > [@](#): > > Rest assured, it was O’Reilly. O’Reilly is an ass, but he didn’t start the trend of “Don’t say Merry Christmas! Don’t play hymms! Don’t display a manger scene!” I’m just unclear on whether this is a matter of Christians pushing **too much** Jesusy stuff, necessitating a backlash, or non-Christians griping about Jesusy stuff to any degree, striking fear in the hearts of corporations and city councils. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/55 "2006-11-13T04:28:28Z")
I live halfway around the world in a non-Christian country (less than 1% of the population claims to be Christian) where the “tradition” of Christmas involves strawberry shortcake, romantic dates, and possibly jewelry (dont’ ask, I don’t get it either). And I _still_ can’t get away from the fucking Christmas music. They start playing it right around this time of year at higher volumes than most background muzak ever reaches in the US. I went to the US this September to have my wedding. My soon-to-be mother in law found a Christmas store selling Christmas Crap (tm?) and they were _out of stock_ on one of the items she wanted to get. (Slightly odd + hard to find in Japan + cute enough to make you need an insulin shot even when you’re not diabetic = souvenir, must buy now.) This was, what, September 15? By that time they’d already sold enough of this kitchy toy elf cleaning the ice by his cottage thing to need restocking. What the hell? When I was a kid I distinctly remember both Halloween and Thanksgiving decorations. No music, but there were fold-out turkeys and pilgrim hats. I remember witches, cats, and ghosts everywhere for Halloween, for at least a week. The abuse of Christmas may go back 50 years or more, but I think it has definitely gotten worse in my lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/56 "2006-11-13T04:33:44Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] I’m 46. I’ve never, ever observed the birth of a Jewish carpenter who died over 2000 years ago. [/QUOTE] See. There. You just blew whatever credibility you had with this one assertation. I’m pretty sure you’ve had a bite of fruitcake in 46 years. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/57 "2006-11-13T04:39:27Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] And yet people wonder why I live here. [/QUOTE] You mean they still wait until after Thanksgiving to start playing Christmas carols in Saudi Arabia? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/58 "2006-11-13T05:08:35Z")
[QUOTE=Rilchiam] It’s not inclusiveness that bothers me. It’s the schools that forbid “Jesusy” music entirely, and don’t acknowledge other religions **either** , and have to fall back on making it all about snow. I don’t see how two wrongs make a right. [/quote] And I’m not sure that I agree with making it all about snow, either. But public schools are, as I said, catering to a wide variety of students and parents, necessitating the need to be more circumspect. I’m not sure that I see a way around it. Just like people the world over, they’re trying to cover their asses. Does this sometimes manifest itself as overkill? Sure. Is anyone really up for making a holiday concert all inclusive? I know that in my district there are kids who are being raised Buddhist, Jew, Christian, Muslim and, in one particular instance, Zoroastrian; not to mention those who are being raised to celebrate Kwanzaa or something else entirely. To do a concert that caters to all of those beliefs would take too damned long, and would, rest assured, result in someone, most likely a Christian, kvelling that their religion wasn’t given prominent enough recognition. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. > [@](#): > > O’Reilly is an ass, but he didn’t start the trend of “Don’t say Merry Christmas!” No. That was retailers. You think we areligious people are tough, retailers have a union that you simply can’t break. > [@](#): > > “Don’t play hymms!” I’ve yet to encounter anyone who thinks that this is necessarily a bad idea. Well, except for doing so as early as November freaking first, I mean. > [@](#): > > “Don’t display a manger scene!” Well, no. At least not on the lawn in front of the courthouse. Unless you want to cater to the groups referenced above, as well as numerous others. That would make for a very cluttered lawn. And most towns prefer to keep things stripped down and clean. Otherwise, it becomes much too cluttered. > [@](#): > > I’m just unclear on whether this is a matter of Christians pushing **too much** Jesusy stuff, necessitating a backlash, or non-Christians griping about Jesusy stuff to any degree, striking fear in the hearts of corporations and city councils. Or, y’know, those selfsame corporations and city councils pushing the issue. Up until they finally piss off the employees or denizens of their respective companies or townships, bringing down their wrath. Not the case always, but I’m rather pleased that those who share my apathy/disgust with religious situations have the stones to finally stand up for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/59 "2006-11-13T05:21:18Z")
> [@](#): > > The only reason that it may be getting worse is that you now have a lower tolerance. I am over 40 years old and it has been pretty much the same for as long as I can remember which includes people saying that it gets worse every year. I’m just not convinced. Maybe it’s just my upbringing, where we actually observed a gap between _Thanksgiving_ and Christmas, putting the tree up around the second week of December. But this is the first year I’ve really noticed Christmas trees up and decorated–not just for sale, and not in stores, but in homes and non-retail businesses–this far before Thanksgiving. In fact, I’m pretty sure this has to be at least relatively recent. Up until the last two or three decades, most people put up a real Christmas tree. It’s not easy to do that in mid-November and keep it looking nice all the way through to January. Something I’ve always wondered about–it seems like you often see characters in old movies and TV shows putting up a Christmas tree on Christmas Eve. I’m sure it’s mostly a device to confine the many dramas of the Christmas season into one day, and they usually make it clear that those characters are late to the party, but they don’t act like it’s that ridiculous. How has the timetable for getting a tree up changed over the years? > [@](#): > > Well then, screw it. If I don’t get to kill anyone, at the very least, then I won’t join. Maybe if Bill O’Reilly gets particularly annoying with the “War on Christmas” nonsense, we can work something out… ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137/60 "2006-11-13T05:38:24Z")
[QUOTE=DoctorJ] . . .it seems like you often see characters in old movies and TV shows putting up a Christmas tree on Christmas Eve. I’m sure it’s mostly a device to confine the many dramas of the Christmas season into one day, and they usually make it clear that those characters are late to the party, but they don’t act like it’s that ridiculous. How has the timetable for getting a tree up changed over the years? [/quote] I remember people when I was but a wee lad telling me that in their homes, Santa brought the tree. Of course, it meant that their kids couldn’t go in the garage during December, but kids can be annoying as all hell anyway, so parents no doubt needed a place they could drink in peace. > [@](#): > > Maybe if Bill O’Reilly gets particularly annoying with the “War on Christmas” nonsense, we can work something out… Deal. Call me. Because I understand that plotting the death of someone on the board is frowned upon. Even one so deserving as our Mr. O’Reilly. Which I would never advocate. Ever. My email address is in my profile. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-gotta-be-shitting-me-christmas-music/380137.md?page=4)