# You have an All-pro RB and you run a QB keeper **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 7, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-have-an-all-pro-rb-and-you-run-a-qb-keeper/700615 "2014-10-07T01:48:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-have-an-all-pro-rb-and-you-run-a-qb-keeper/700615/21 "2014-10-07T18:27:42Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So, you’re saying that when the 49ers reached the NFC Championship game in each of the last three years (and the Super Bowl in one of those years), they were doing it wrong? They, and Seattle, were riding elite defenses. Kapernick was 30th in passing their SB year. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-have-an-all-pro-rb-and-you-run-a-qb-keeper/700615/22 "2014-10-07T18:34:53Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > They, and Seattle, were riding elite defenses. Kapernick was 30th in passing their SB year. Answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-have-an-all-pro-rb-and-you-run-a-qb-keeper/700615/23 "2014-10-07T18:43:07Z")
FYI: if anyone has any reason to believe that this thread will end any differently than [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=578855) did, I’d love to hear your reasoning for it. I expect at least two sentences - far more than we’ll ever get out of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-have-an-all-pro-rb-and-you-run-a-qb-keeper/700615/24 "2014-10-07T18:50:35Z")
I think it’s likely that you’re the only one who even has enough optimism that it could theoretically happen to bother predicting that it won’t. That was only one sentence, so: YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!! ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-have-an-all-pro-rb-and-you-run-a-qb-keeper/700615/25 "2014-10-07T18:53:11Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Well, yeah, but the difference is that you’re calling one group one thing and another group another. It’s definitely not that there are quarterbacks that run first, and quarterbacks that don’t run first. Why not? You don’t see a difference in the play of Russell Wilson and RGIII? Are all those NFL analysts who point out the difference making it all up? > [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > At his very most insane, Vick ran 123 times in a season. I’m not a wizard but I think that’s less than 8 times a game; let’s call it 8. Mobile throwerman Aaron Rodgers ran 4. something something times per game at his most runnerish. Kaepernick was at 5.75 last year. So Vick running twice as many times is evidence that there is no difference between him (run first) and Rodgers (mobile QB)? I’m not sure that really helps your point. And Kaepernick’s number or rushes are also higher than Rodgers. Add in that Kaepernick threw the ball only 416 times last year to Rodgers’ 552 in 2012 (he was injured for a good chunk of 2013). So Rodgers runs the ball less, throws the ball a ton more, and … remind me your point again? > [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > For Vick and Kaepernick and Cam Newton, some rushing attempts are straight called runs, and for everyone you’ve got your handful of sneaks in a given year. That leaves everyone scrambling at what looks like a similar enough rate that you’re talking a time or two per game difference at the very most, and probably somewhat less between your “mobile” guys and your “runners.” That’s not that much of a distinction. Twice as many rushing attempts a year for Vick and Rodgers isn’t much of a distinction? 54 to 92 isn’t a big deal when factoring in pass attempts and plays run? I beg to differ. I think the stats support the conclusion that some QB’s are run first and others are not. Of course, there is a continuum of players on the spectrum, but to deny the distinction altogether flies in the face of the statistics and the analysis of dozens of football commentators and coaches. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-have-an-all-pro-rb-and-you-run-a-qb-keeper/700615/26 "2014-10-07T18:58:11Z")
What do the words “run” and “first” mean in the phrase run first? Anything that flies in the face of dozens of football commentators seems OK with me so far. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-have-an-all-pro-rb-and-you-run-a-qb-keeper/700615/27 "2014-10-07T19:25:03Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > What do the words “run” and “first” mean in the phrase run first? Do you not know? It’s used to describe the tendencies of a QB. A run first QB is one who has more plays designed and called to take advantage of their running abilities and, if the first read on a passing call isn’t a good throw, looks to run before passing. As to the second thing, pne of the things these commentators that you don’t care for say is that, when the first throw isn’t there, Russell Wilson (and Rodgers) move in the pocket or scramble and look for a receiver to come open. Whereas QB’s like RGIII, Kaeperick, Vick, Manziel, Tebow, and dozens of others who haven’t cut it in the NFL, if they don’t make a throw on their first read, they tend to tuck the ball and take off running rather than trying to buy time to make a pass. Hope that helps. > [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > Anything that flies in the face of dozens of football commentators seems OK with me so far. And the stats. You just seem to gloss over those. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-have-an-all-pro-rb-and-you-run-a-qb-keeper/700615/28 "2014-10-07T19:25:45Z")
Do/did the Packers have designed QB runs that weren’t sneaks or draws? I am ignorant of their play selection, but I thought Rodgers’s runs were due to the designed play breaking down, and him running as a result of avoiding pressure. As opposed to many of Vick’s or Kaep’s plays, where even if it’s pass first, it’s understood he’ll run if his first reads are covered. Did Rodgers have a lot of designed option plays called for him? Anyway, that’s how I’d characterize a run-first QB like Vick. Edit: or sort of what Hamlet already said. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-have-an-all-pro-rb-and-you-run-a-qb-keeper/700615/29 "2014-10-07T19:31:39Z")
The stats are right up there. I started with them. The stats are that some quarterbacks, at the very extreme ends of the scale, run like four times per game more than quarterbacks at the other end. But nobody says “this is a guy that runs slightly more than others on passing downs and way more than the guys who almost never run.” They say that some quarterbacks look to run before they look to pass. Which is just obviously not the case, as the difference is a play or two a game, at most, when you account for the fact that quarterbacks who are fantastically great at running run more designed runs than quarterbacks who are not fantastically great at it. Russell Wilson, by the way, runs six times per game, which is more than run-first quarterback Kaepernick, so I guess it isn’t in the stats? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-have-an-all-pro-rb-and-you-run-a-qb-keeper/700615/30 "2014-10-07T19:39:59Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Do/did the Packers have designed QB runs that weren’t sneaks or draws? I am ignorant of their play selection, but I thought Rodgers’s runs were due to the designed play breaking down, and him running as a result of avoiding pressure. As opposed to many of Vick’s or Kaep’s plays, where even if it’s pass first, it’s understood he’ll run if his first reads are covered. Did Rodgers have a lot of designed option plays called for him? > > Anyway, that’s how I’d characterize a run-first QB like Vick. > > Edit: or sort of what Hamlet already said. This is the opposite of how “run first” is usually used. Those plays should be excluded if what we’re talking about is the decision the quarterback makes between passing and running. This is what **etv** was talking about, which is using your quarterback as a runner. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-have-an-all-pro-rb-and-you-run-a-qb-keeper/700615/31 "2014-10-07T19:43:30Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > The stats are that some quarterbacks, at the very extreme ends of the scale, run like four times per game more than quarterbacks at the other end. But nobody says “this is a guy that runs slightly more than others on passing downs and way more than the guys who almost never run.” I guess we’ll just have to disagree on how significant doubling the amount of total runs and designing runs for your QB is. C’est la vie. > [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > Russell Wilson, by the way, runs six times per game, which is more than run-first quarterback Kaepernick, so I guess it isn’t in the stats? It’s not all in the stats, no. And Wilson is, to my mind, much more a running QB than a pocket passer, at least thus far in his career. It’s that whole spectrum thing I was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-have-an-all-pro-rb-and-you-run-a-qb-keeper/700615/32 "2014-10-07T19:48:27Z")
Ha. The spectrum thing that… also is the point that I’m making. Yeah, I’ll concede that point. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-have-an-all-pro-rb-and-you-run-a-qb-keeper/700615/33 "2014-10-07T23:27:56Z")
I think it’s better to look at yards gain from running vs. passing. Looking at 2013 (note these are Fantasy stats so I think kneeldowns might negatively affect stats, but it shouldn’t be too significant) Runfirst QBs like Griffin, Wilson, Kaep and Newton got 13-15% of their total yards from running. Mobile QBs like Cutler and Rodgers got around 5% of their total yards from running. Then guys like the Mannings, Brady and Romo got less than 1% of their yards from running. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-have-an-all-pro-rb-and-you-run-a-qb-keeper/700615.md?page=1)