You have one shot.....

I was just tossing off ideas, in no coherent order, so let me clarify:

1. First off, I’m assuming that for the purposes of this discussion, that I have a large (Army sized) mechanized force with equivalent air power. As there aren’t too many countries that can afford this…well, it’s all theoretical anyway, so just assume.

2a. I know what my Strategic Objective is. And that I am able to position my forces (preferably Canada and Mexico, with a few Marine-type invasion forces, about Brigade strength, concealed in RO/RO Car Carriers off the East and West Coasts) undetected.

2b. Knowing my objective and plan of attack, I have accordingly properly shielded my own forces from the EMP, and have sufficient stockpiles of food (combat rats.; YUM-MY!) medicine, fuel, parts and ammo, as well as the prime movers to transport them.

3a. A 20 megaton nuke, in a low orbit over the northern hemisphere, will completely fuck all civillian-grade electronics, including the factories that make not only civillian electronics, but military electronics as well. Even the hardened ones.

Cars. Commo nodes. Power nodes. Hospitals. Water Distribution networks (whaddaya think controls the pumps and valves? Buh-Bye New York and L.A.!) Airports and their aircraft. Kiss them all goddbye.

3b. Detonate in early January. With the control mechanism to transport petroleum off-line, the northern 2/3 of the U.S.A. will freeze and/or starve to death in a week (I’m assuming a “Liebensraum” motivation for my attack) unless the military responds quickly to enact emergency relief measures.

Only the military has the resources to ensure order in the resulting chaos; food, medicines and shelter. Given the dispersed nature of our civillian population, this will scatter the military to a fare-thee-well. Large transprt aircraft will be busy flying relief supplies to major urban centers; troop formations will be deployed in a peace-keeping, urban pacification mode. Mechanized combat formations will be stripped of personnel to man and administer refugee centers. Helicopters (cargo variety) will be used to move relief supplies from nodes to where they are actually needed, while sophisticated gunships, with 9:1 Maintenence/Operation ratios, will quickly be grounded when the supply of sophisticated electronic and mechanical parts run out (no factories to make them!).

4. Give two weeks time for the American military to fully deploy in a relief mode, then invade. Take everything from the Mississippi River to the Rockies, Canada-to-Mexico. Put your newly-acquired serfs to work in the fields come Spring Planting, and reap the harvest.

When the forces guarding the cities come after you, deploy your Marines to take the urban centers and destroy their remaining technological manufacturing base in hit-and-run raids, then dally in the U.S. Force’s rear to keep pressure off of your formations in the midwest. This supports you, as the U.S. Forces simply cannot ignore Brigade-sized elements in their rear areas. They either:

a. split (weaken) their forces to guard their rear while attacking you, or;

b. ignore you to secure their rear, or;

c. ignore their rear to come after you full strength, with the consequence that they’d get corn-holed in the ass by Force Recon style deep-strike light infantry, striking from bases in the newly-captured urban centers (N.Y., D.C., Charleston (S.C.), etc.,)

5. The Nuclear Counter-Strike ICBM’s are Strategic weapons; you just don’t (actually can’t!) reprogram them to hit a mobile, tactical formation. For an apt analogy, try swatting a fly with a grenade launcher, inside your own home. Doesn’t work, and just opens up your home for more flies. Besides, would you really want to nuke your own “Bread Basket”?

You can “Win the Hearts and Minds” of the people by supplying them with food, shelter, and medicine (in exchange for forced labor, I mean, er, “gainful employment”, of course! :D) once the American military runs away to fight your main force in the midwest.

6. I cannot emphasise this enough: mobility, Mobility, Mobility! Positional warfare is suicide for my invasion force, as then they are vulnerable to ICBMs! Take key terrain features (my aforementioned “Mississippi River to the Rockies” statement), as they are easier to defend from. The U.S. Military is woefully underequipped/unprepared with “Engineering Assets”. Take key mountain passes out west and bridges on the Mississippi River; blow the rest to deny their use to the U.S. Forces. Make them come to me on the terrain of my choosing.

Note to the Militarily Impaired: “Positional Warfare” and “Defensive Warfare” need not be the same thing; they can be, but not necessarily are by default. “Operational Art” can leave you a fully mobile force capable of defensive engagements in a fluid battle.

These are still just rough ideas; I’m assuming Strategic and Tactical Initiative throughout, which isn’t guaranteed (there are some pretty sharp General-rank people in the military who could, quite concievably, turn the tables on me and my forces).

I’m trying to put as much logistical strain as possible on the military by crippling the civillian infrastructure; they either ignore the “starving masses” to fight, or hamper themselves with humanitarian relief to the point that their combat effectiveness is degraded. Hopefully to the point that they are no longer truly combat effective.

If they ignore the devastated civillians, my purposes are served in several ways:

1. There will be less people to pacify. The old, the sick, the weak will die off, and the survivors wll be too demoralized/weakened to effectively resist.

2. The individual soldiers comprising the combat formations coming after me will either be so furious that they’ll act foolishly heroic or be so demoralized as to be practically zombies.

3. My relief forces will have thousands, if not millions, of civillian hostages with which to bargain. Ask Johhny Soldier Boy if he wants to continue fighting if he knows that his wife and children are quite possibly alive and well, and all he has to do to be with them in my new forced labor compounds is to lay down his rifle and walk away.

ExTank
“Maybe Not Quite As HArmless As You Would Like To Think”
:stuck_out_tongue:

I’ve seen it. :slight_smile: I have a video at home with all the major tests, narrated by Captain Kirk. One of the tests that fascinates me is (I forget how it was named) one where they were testing the effects of altitude on the blast area. In one firing, they used a relatively large weapon (for the time) at an altitude of 1500 feet and got firestorms and a good radius of blast damage. A school bus and a jeep that were there for test purposes had all the paint burned off of them and rocked in the breeze. Next, they used a much smaller weapon at an altitude of 500 feet and got some sort of weird blast wave that crumpled the bus and jeep and threw them several hundred feet.

My 800 foot detonation was just a WAG hoping to take advantage of that effect with a much larger weapon (obviously if I were really planning this, I’d calculate altitude to optimize the blast effect with a 20MT or so warhead). Any lower than that, and you lose any significant EMP. On the other hand, maybe ExTank has the right idea in sacrificing any blast effect in exchange for massive EMP.

Ex-Tank

It might, and I mean might, work if a nuclear blast can kill every piece of comm hardware in north america. I don’t think it can - can you provide a cite for the EMP from a 20 megaton nuke?

There are a couple of problems - remember, St. Petersburg held off the warmacht for 3 years, and LA is better armed than they were. Ignoring for the moment that you’d be facing more than a brigade of marines when you tried to land here ( from 29 palms ), even with no military back up, you’d be facing 3,000,000 civilians, some 500,000 of whom are armed. Attacking via San Fran is just as bad - you have to slug your way through oakland to get anywhere. It just doesn’t work to do street to street fighting with an armed populace. And remember, the first thing most of us would do is leave town - do every major roadway is blocked, utterly and completely. I hate to sound all patrick swayze, but the troops in the RO carriers aren’t getting through. Civilian casualties would be unbelievable, but we’ve got lots of them. Lots and lots and lots of them. And we are really disgustingly well armed. LAUSD teaches molotov cocktail making in 9th grade (well, it is an elective), so don’t think that the mechanized brigade is going to win the day for you. Frankly, you’d be lucky to get passed the longshoreman at long beach, then the LAPD. Then you’re in compton. Then you’re facing the marines from 29 palms, what ever is left of El Toro, the Mirage Fighter base fighters, and the overwhelming tackyness of the inland empire. That’s So Cal; I imagine that the rest of the country looks the same way.

Oh, and remember, the fast attack sub fleet is in Hawaii. As soon as the word goes up, they are crossing that 3000 miles at a consistent 30 knots. As soon as the fleet arrives, you do not have sea based supply lines. Unless you’ve got more aircraft carriers than the rest of the world has now to do support.

Also note that, if you give us two weeks, the national guard, and not the military, is keeping the peace. The weekend warriors aren’t good for much in combat, maybe, but they can hand out food and blankets.

Also, I tihnk you are optimistic about the freezing and starving to death in a week. The furniture might be gone, but I don’t think we’d be prying up the floorboards quite yet. Also, as has been discussed on these boards a few times, americans, on the whole, are a little on the heavy side. Two weeks is, worst case, about 10 pounds of fat gone.

Both civilian and military satelites have automatic roll-overs; failure at one location rolls control over to the next with in 30 seconds. Communications are decentralized, but they do have be rolled over by hand (you might know military stuff; I’ve got friends in network security, planning, telcom, and entertainment. I know this stuff) . If that nuke doesn’t take out all comm gear, we’ve still got intel coming in. Oh, and the AWACs are in the air 10 second s after the launch. We know where you are, and we’d like you to meet the F4 fighter ( do you happen to remember the ordinance the F4 carries? Give you a hint - they can carry tactical nukes ).

Plans that rely on “demoralizing the US by targeted strategic bombing” have been tried. They didn’t work.

You will not be able to get passed the urban centers that sit on every major port in the US. If you do somehow make it passed them, you won’t be able to keep supply lines open, especially not in january. A fast mechanized invasion through Texas leaves a million pissed off, armed texans behind you, raiding your supply lines, stealing your stuff and selling it back to you at a huge mark up. Patroling NY/SF/LA/Boston/Seattle will take more than a brigade each; you can take it, but you wont be able to hold it. Hell, remember the problems our marines had holding cities in Viet Nam? And we have more and better weapons here.

If you try to hold, you get chipped at by the populace. If you try to move, every one and their uncle raids your supply lines. Either way, you lose. Then the New Jersey shows up off the coast of the country that sponsored the attack, and we sit around watching the newly restored CNN and watch the fireworks displays that used to be your country.

Oh, a note about food, especially when hitting the big cities. CA has earthquakes. It will take more than a week to exhaust water. Waterheaters hold enough water for a couple of weeks (well, mine would carry us for a month), then we dip into the swimming pools. It might work in NY; it won’t work in the less densely packed areas.

I’m not quite sure what you’re thinking, but I am pretty sure he wasn’t planning to invade with Boy Scouts. Yes, taking the US would be really difficult, but I think you’re a) overly optimistic, and b) putting too much faith in the resolve of the fat, lazy people who cry if they don’t get to watch “who wants to be a millionaire” that populate this country.

I feel that any sort of widespread inconvenience would destroy civilian morale, forget about a nuclear strike on a major populated area.

But my major contention with you is this:

When has the U.S. ever been a victim of “targeted strategic bombing” that you can say it’s been tried but it didn’t work? I’m pretty sure no bombs have fallen during my 30 years, and my grandfather can remember all the way back to the 20s, before “strategic bombing” ever existed.

Bashere:

I like you. And your faith in the technological house of cards your kind’s genius has spawned. And your pride in L.A., and it’s rough and ready inner-city types who are ready and capable of impeding a determined military formation :rolleyes:.

And who said I was going to take the cities? Your hot-water heaters and swimming pools may keep you wet for a while, but let those hunger pains set in (no matter how much avoirdupois the American public has to spare), and the soft, fat, comfortable populace will be hailing me as a savior for bringing back Monday Night Deathball, Must Watch T.V. (The Execution Channel would go over great, I’m sure!), Malt Liquor, Kentucky Fried Rat, Monster Tank Rallies, and Forced Labor for 1,000 calories a day.

My attacks on the east and west coasts are to destroy any remaining technological manufacturing base, not to take land, or capture civillians.

And one civillian RO/RO or container ship looks pretty much like any other civillian RO/RO or container ship. While you may have no moral qualms about blowing up anything and everything in sight (good thing you’re not my opposition :slight_smile: ), American sub skippers are a little more disciplined and civilised than that (God Bless The Maryland Barge And Canoe Factory and their long, Patrician, Anglo-Saxon, Judeo-Christian traditions!)

St. Petersburg (Stalingrad) held out by eating their dead. Historically, I would expect that sort of resolve from Russians. But Americans?

“EEEEWWWW! That’s, like, totally gross, dude! I’m not eating that!”

By the time the hunger pains overide their delicate sensibilities, the meat will probably have already gone over, and so: one way or another, my problem of too many civillians to fight/guard is taken care of.

My Strategic objective is to take the midwest, what y’all dismiss as “flyover” country. You know, the lands bordered by a huge chain of mountains on one side and a long, fast moving river on the other? The place that produces the lion’s share of the food that this nation consumes?

And I also mentioned in my previous post that before the whole silly scenario is to even be contemplated, a total gun-ban, with door-to-door confiscations, would first have to be implemented.

But, in answer to your question, let’s take a look at what is an actual electromagnetic pulse

Add some stats from the study conducted by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers: Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) and TEMPEST Protection For Facilities

Specifically referencing Chapter 2, you’ll find an abundance of very general data concerning propogation of EMP effects, and common succeptability of standard structures.

A couple of quotes caught my eye:

and…

and lastly…

I read this to mean: “Your average civillian structure will effieciently and effectively collect this EMP energy and channel it directly into your sensitive parts quicker than a Jackie Chan Movie’s ‘Kick-in-the-Nuts’ shot”

OUCH! That’s gotta hurt!

Now, I know that all of you flag-waving patriots are saying, “Of course, of course. But the Military knows all this and has surely taken steps!”

A few reminders: Fiscal Constraints; Budgetary Cutbacks; Contracted To The Lowest Bidder; 2-Billion-a-pop Stealth Bombers; Downsized Military.

Sure, the military is probably better protected than the private sector; but they aren’t the target of my theoretical HEMP. The Private Sector is. And with all of those sophisticated, delicate electronics…oh my. They are just going to go “SNAP, CRACKLE, POP!” and out goes the lights. The phones. The internet. The refirgerator. The Electric igniter in your furnace. Your car (older models may not be effected) and the trucks delivering groceries to your local grocery store. The computer controlling pumps and valves at the reservoirs. The radios. Even your precious satellites.

So that the military has to go baby-sit and hold the hands of all of those freezing, starving civillians instead of fighting me and my invading force.

Another reminder: the Strategic Food Surplus is at it all-time lowest point (like, 30 days or less) under the Clinton Administration. Not really his fault, though. The Limbaughians made him do it through the microchip they implanted in his penis through agent Lewinski.

But it is all just theoretical.

Right?

My objection to ExTank’s interesting scenario remains logistic.
I don’t see that his force has the capability to resupply itself either from here or abroad. I’d like to see a rationale for the continued existence of a nation that nuked us in this manner. As for living off the land, while giving the US military time to disperse is sound strategic thinking, it entails a couple of weeks under a wrecked distribution system with Americans using up local stocks. I don’t see how the raiders could scrounge up enough POL to keep moving.


Just my 2sense

I’d think that the only way to take U.S. with a minute chance is an all-out blitzkrieg. You do the EMP thing, but instead of taking the food soureces or any of that stuff, you send in about 2/3+ of your Airforce and Navy with orders to stragetically bomb U.S. nuclear silo bases, that way they can’t bomb you or themselves. After you’ve taken out the Missles, you bomb the Army bases and any land troops in sight. Once that’s finished, you send in your land troops to pick off the remaining U.S. Army and send in your 1/3 remainging Airforce to back up what’s left of your original and take out the U.S. Airforce and Navy. If the West-Coast is a problem, try bombing some fault-lines. You may get lucky and cause a catostrophic Earthquake that may rip Washington on down from the nation. You’ve just killed 50mil+ citezens that you don’t have to worry about. Once you’ve taken out the remaining land-force in U.S., you send some troops to the higher grounds(ie:Mountains) equipped with RPG’s and Radar tracking units(You’ve just started WWIII so expect the rest of the world to come for you). By now, the UN has taken out your former Nation, so you’ll have to produce for yourself. Force the remaining citizens to work for you and train some to be Human-Shields for your real troops. Make sure you have Star Wars technology. That way you can take out all of the Russian missles coming straight for you. If you get lucky(or you have the help of a Deity), you may win WWIII. Bask in the glory of half of the worlds population dying and the Earth ripping to pieces. Oh, by the way, You do have about fifty allies to help you out against the rest of the world? You don’t? Well, then you’re screwed.

Total Cost: $500Trillion+
Total Deaths: 2billion+

Maybe this wasn’t such a good idea?

  1. Load the nuke into an ICBM, smuggle it into China, and get it prepped for launch.

  2. Forge a few letters from the president of China to President Bush complaining about our “ridiculous obsession” with human rights, and how America is encouraging dissent.

  3. Launch the nuke at anywhere in US territory it can reach.

  4. Wait for the US to retaliate, then attack while they’re distracted. If they start shooting nukes at each other, wait for them to stop before entering.

To RoboDude: You wouldn’t have anything to take with your method. At least with my impossible method, you may have half of the nation left.

I would if China really does have neutron bombs - IIRC, the radiation diminishes to safe levels after 10 years, and the bombs do little, if any damage to anything non-living.

Well, given that all this is premised on some invader smuggling an entire army into either Canada (with which we have an actual military alliance) or Mexico without our noticing, yeah, it’s pretty theoretical.

Thats easy. Take out the SDMB, and society will colapse into ignorance…

ExTank, have you played Command & Conquer: Red Alert 2? Deals with this near-exact scenario…

The biggest problem with taking the US would be the civilians. However, Americans ARE fat and lazy. We’re addicted to our phones and computers and automated butt warmers.

I think, for the purpose of this dicussion, we should make some other limits, as well. Let’s not bother with what country the aggressor is (let’s call it, oh, Warmongeria). Troops strength? Let’s say you’ve managed to get 10,000 troops in position to start with, but you can get another 50,000 in within 24 hours, and another 500,000 within a week. So, 'Tank, plan your initial attack that way. You’d probably want to start recruiting from the local populace ASAP.

Actually, you’d want to start your attack years ahead of time, planting disinformation agents to instill a sense of unease in the population of the States. It’d make civilian hassles a lot less prominent, and it would give you a population base to draw more volunteers from.

As for armor… oh, I’m no good at this. What would be a good-sized yet-easy-to-conceal tank fleet? 100, initially, followed up by reinforcements from deeper in Mexico/Canada? Plus smaller support vehicles? I’d think you can take a good chunk of American soil with 100 tanks at your disposal… but for all I know I may be way too high (I’ve played too many computer games, where you can attack your enemy with a group consisting of ONLY tanks :D).

I don’t think your initial attack would be able to utilize too many air forces… they’d be too difficult to smuggle into position. At best, you’d have several light gunship/transports at your disposal, but no heavy-duty assault birds. And all of your jets will have to be brought in after your ground forces take a good chunk of land, so I don’t think you can count on them…

It seems that your attack would have to be preceded by several years of seeding discord in the American population, mainly. Although Americans seem to be doing a good enough job of it themselves… but you’ll need agents to focus the resentment! At best, you can get half of the country just by making them hate Dubya even more :D.

Extank: “Hey, Stoid, wanna join my army? You’ll get to fight Bush!”

Stoid: “I’M IN!!!”

Although I think we’re pretty settled on the EMP thing.

Umm, ever hear the term “tacnuke”? They can shoot them out of the 175mm, etc. Any army that used just one nuke- woudl find itself glowing softly, in many, many much smaller craters.

And, I am not sure an EMP blast would do that much damage over such a large area. EMPs are nasty- but they do not go much further than a dozen/twenty miles- at least if you are talking about really fried electronics. If you set it off high enuf- you could likely EMP a major city. But that is just one city.

:SIGH:

Daniel, their is a world of difference, yield- and delivery-wise, between a Tactical Nuclear Device and an ICBM.

As far as the effects of an HEMP, did you look over the study I linked to in my post yesterday? If you didn’t, let me re-direct your attention to the relevant quotes:

If “my” country, Warmongeria, can field an Army-sized mechanized force, with air- and sea-support, I think I can get a nuke up to 500km over North America, undetected, and detonate it at my liesure.

As far as starting a war against the Bush administration, if you look at the breakdown of election results by county, I wouldn’t be getting much support from “flyover country”. And with all the privately owned weapons and open space out there, partisan warfare would be a mother.

The only popular support I’d get would be from people like Stoidela and city-bred types.

And as the saying goes: “With friends like that…”.

I’d rather wait until a liberal is back in office and reversing all the “damage” of the Bush administration (“damage” being relative to where you sit on the political spectrum) and all the “cretinous, inbred, redneck hicks” (an actual quote from another poster here on SDMB) in flyover country getting PO’d at D.C.,then launch my attack, with my propoganda aimed at getting the midwest behind me.

Considering the “liberal” attitude towards, and the treatment of the military, I may not have to fight too damned hard against them.

As most ICBM silos are located out in the midwest, I think it would be easier to take them out with ground forces than nuking them into craters and poisoning the very soil I want to take and hold.

With the Strategic Food Surplus being critically low, I’d just starve out the East and West coasts (after all, I now own the country’s “bread basket”) while consolidating my power base in the plains, then roll on the coasts at my liesure.

Yes, I would expect an attempt to retaliate with tactical nukes, which is why I emphasized mobilty in my operational concept. Harder to hit a moving target.

And tube-launched tac-nukes are very short-ranged, one-shot affairs (to get the range, the tube is overloaded, and thusly ruined for subsequent shots), and counter-battery is also a mother.

Being the initiator of the nuclear EMP attack, don’t you think I would have enough sense to adequately shield my own weapons systems?!

But I did like the idea of nuking the various fault-lines; even if western California did not slide into the Pacific, the resulting damage from 'Quakes would leave them even more vulnerable.

The OP asks what I would do with my one shot, and evidence and study indicates that, for widest possible coverage and effect, HEMP is the way to go. It was just IMHO initially, but a casual perusal of sites returned on an internet search for “Electromagnetic Pulse” seemed to bear out my hunch.

Everything else is just spit-balling on my part. I wouldn’t want to be the General who might have to try it. And as MaynardJK pointed out, tossing nukes about casually will quickly put me in the red, cost/benefit wise.

The civillian casualties alone would pose a significant health risk to my own troops, once spring thaw hits (my premise was a winter attck, if y’all recall).

Considering how many people about the world hate the U.S., I may not have to worry too much about retaliation from other countries, as long as I take no hostile action against them.

Lots of complexities in this equation; I won’t even begin to pretend that I’ve somehow analyzed them all and have a “master plan” for conquering the U.S. I know I don’t have a good enough understanding of international politics to adequately judge the “Global Response” to “my” invasion.

What I do have is a decent military education backed up by IRL tactical experience, a first-hand, eyewitness study of a modern, complex strategic operation, a basic understanding of Strategic Imperatives, a basic understanding of human psychology, a good grasp of the current state of readiness of the military (personnel and equipment) and a healthy grasp of Sun-Tzu.

For the purposes of the OP, I stand behind my ideas.

Like Joe_Cool said, it may very well really belong in IMHO.

Wait until your attack is underway and the US has massed a force to counter attack and then nuke that.

Get your troops into the heart of major cities then the US can’t use nukes on you !

ExTank, have I found my way onto your “ignore at all costs” list for some reason?

Florida, of course. Everything in the country will come to a screaming halt while they try to count the casualties. No one will agree on the figures and will keep demanding recounts. Differences of opinions will form over whether or not dead bodies found but not perforated by shrapnel should be counted, and whether or not casualties of heart attacks who were also perforated by shrapnel should be discarded from the count. Long before they sort all this out, I’ll have my invading armies in Washington.

Me, I’d target a certain high school in the midwest.
http://us.imdb.com/Plot?0087985
Thus wiping out the US’s only hope of defending itself.
:smiley:
Peace,
mangeorge

Canada has an army big enough to invade the US? Mom will be so pleased.