# You Hear About the "Red Flag" Law Thing in Upstate New York? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 25, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944 "2019-11-25T01:55:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/1 "2019-11-25T01:55:05Z")
I suspect this is the next Pizzagate. I sort of stumbled across this, it is big on some progun sites. You may have missed it. [Here is a link that is less panicky than most.](https://gatdaily.com/red-flag-putnam-county-what-happened-in-new-york-yesterday/) The Sheriff in Putman County New York went to a guy’s house because of some sort of domestic call. They knocked on the door. The guy refused to come out. He then went on InstaGram to declare that the police were there to take his thirty-round magazine. People fell for it hook, line & sinker. [Here is a panicky YouTube.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LJOx3HjBGU) Supposedly eighty pro-gun people showed up to… something, something, something. The police say they settled everything peacefully. The guy faces no charges. Nonetheless, rumors abound that he was arrested, killed or whatever. The fellow is named “Alexander Booth.” You might want to Google him. I suppose the story will develop further. I feel as if I am seeing the next PizzaGate as is starting. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/2 "2019-11-25T04:01:33Z")
Hey, Carmel! My old hometown in the news! Anyway, gun advocates really are on edge in New York. Governor Cuomo has declared that he has enacted the strongest gun control laws in the country. So to gun supporters, New York is already nine-tenths of the way down the road to gun confiscation and tyranny. It’s a perfect location for a guy to start broadcasting that he has jack-booted thugs at the door and get a strong response. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/3 "2019-11-25T06:00:15Z")
I think that is about it. On-edge, jumpy. It is a little funny and a whole lot scary. The thing is that these people have sincerely-held beliefs and cityfolk laughing at them just makes it worse. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/4 "2019-11-25T06:29:41Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I think that is about it. On-edge, jumpy. It is a little funny and a whole lot scary. The thing is that these people have sincerely-held beliefs and cityfolk laughing at them just makes it worse. Well, they can’t have it both ways. I myself am not at all happy about proposed “red flag laws” from the point of view of civil liberties. But if you’re going to be an ardent gun-rights supporter who claims that gun violence is fundamentally more of a mental-health problem than a gun-proliferation problem, then the logical response is to start aggressively monitoring the behavior of gun owners with a reputation for mental instability. And let’s face it, going into panic mode and putting out a drunken alert on social media for folks to come defend you because you’re being “red-flagged” by the “redcoats” who are in fact arresting you in a domestic violence and damage/larceny investigation is not making you look **more** mentally stable, especially if you’re known to suffer from PTSD. The militant types among gun-rights advocates may be starting to find out that the strategy of portraying themselves as perpetually “on-edge” and “jumpy” and ready to leap into full-on aggression mode at any hint of somebody “coming for their guns” might have a downside. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/5 "2019-11-25T18:20:57Z")
What are “red flag laws”? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/6 "2019-11-25T18:35:00Z")
They are laws that permit police and family members ( along with other groups- NY includes teachers and school authorities) to petition a court to temporarily remove firearms from someone whose behavior is believed be threat to themself or others. " Red flags" refers to specific behaviors or types of behavior - the person may have expressed suicidal ideations, or talked about shooting people or violated an order of protection or have dementia or have recklessly discharged a firearm etc. In NY , the judge can grant a temporary order , with a hearing within a week to see if a final order should be granted. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/7 "2019-11-25T19:31:08Z")
Thanks! I had this image of every household where there are guns being required to fly a red flag. The truth is a bit more prosaic. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/8 "2019-11-25T19:40:47Z")
Has this NY law found to be Constitutional by the USSC? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/9 "2019-11-25T19:54:13Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Has this NY law found to be Constitutional by the USSC? It was only enacted in 2019, so not nearly enough time to get to the US Supreme Court. Remember, the Supreme Court doesn’t rule on laws until someone who has actually been affected loses at every previous appeal and then the SC chooses the cases it will accept - so many cases never get there. The first one was enacted in Connecticut in 1999 and apparently has not been found to be unconstitutional, but that’s not the same as saying the SC found it constitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/10 "2019-11-25T21:21:55Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > The police say they settled everything peacefully. The guy faces no charges. Nonetheless, rumors abound that he was arrested, killed or whatever. He faces no gun charges. He was arrested on a warrant for domestic violence burglary and violating a restraining order. He tracked down his wife at his in-laws and broke into the house then went on Instagram live calling for help. It could have been a real shit show. From what I have gathered the deputies at the scene did a great job keeping everything calm and out of control. The Sheriff’s office itself was woefully unprepared for other aspects. Police departments are used to giving out press releases and statements after an event. They had no idea how to combat social media misinformation. There phone system was rendered unusable by hundreds of people flooding the phones. Unconfirmed but I was told enough computer savvy people were involved that could spoof their location and tie up 911 as well ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/11 "2019-11-25T22:02:35Z")
> [@](#): > > They are laws that permit police and family members ( along with other groups- NY includes teachers and school authorities) to petition a court to temporarily remove firearms from someone whose behavior is believed be threat to themself or others. " Red flags" refers to specific behaviors or types of behavior - the person may have expressed suicidal ideations, or talked about shooting people or violated an order of protection or have dementia or have recklessly discharged a firearm etc. In NY , the judge can grant a temporary order , with a hearing within a week to see if a final order should be granted. On the other side of that is the definite possibility of false charges of being a danger to self or others as fodder for a nasty divorce. We have many lawyers here, and I am sure that they have been witness to mutual false charges of child abuse or spousal abuse being brought up in custody battles. There are people who believe that someone is a danger to self and others simply because they own a gun. I understand the concept and justification is some red flag cases, but I think the level of proof needs to be well above just someone’s say so. Let’s have a little due process here… ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/12 "2019-11-26T10:29:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Has this NY law found to be Constitutional by the USSC? As **doreen** already responded, it’s far too soon for this law to have had any serious court challenge. The ACLU is [watching developments](https://www.aclu.org/blog/civil-liberties/mobilization/aclus-position-gun-control): > [@](#): > > When analyzing gun control measures from a civil liberties perspective, we place them into one of three categories. First are laws that regulate or restrict particular types of guns or ammunition, regardless of the purchaser. These sorts of regulations generally raise few, if any, civil liberties issues. Second are proposals that regulate how people acquire guns, again regardless of the identity of the purchaser. These sorts of regulations may raise due process and privacy concerns, but can, if carefully crafted, respect civil liberties. Third are measures that restrict categories of purchasers — such as immigrants or people with mental disabilities — from owning or buying a gun. These sorts of provisions too often are not evidence-based, reinforce negative stereotypes, and raise significant equal protection, due process, and privacy issues. > > Many of the options now being considered raise no civil liberties concerns. That includes bans on assault weapons, high-capacity magazines, and bump stocks. Raising the minimum age for all gun ownership to 21, currently the legal age for purchasing a handgun, also raises no civil liberties issues […] > > So-called “red flag laws,” which provide for protective orders to remove guns from people who pose a significant risk to themselves or others, can also be a reasonable way to further public safety. To be constitutional, however, they must at a minimum have clear, nondiscriminatory criteria for defining persons as dangerous and a fair process for those affected to object and be heard by a court. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/13 "2019-11-26T13:59:22Z")
Thanks for the info. I’m interested to see if the USSC ever rules this law “Constitutional” what those “but Heller!” people will say. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/14 "2019-11-26T15:16:07Z")
> [@LH75](#): > > I understand the concept and justification is some red flag cases, but I think the level of proof needs to be well above just someone’s say so. Let’s have a little due process here… A requirement for a hearing in front of a judge within one week isn’t due process? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/15 "2019-11-26T17:20:12Z")
> [@LH75](#): > > I understand the concept and justification is some red flag cases, but I think the level of proof needs to be well above just someone’s say so. Let’s have a little due process here… [https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/CVP/6341](https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/CVP/6341) > [@](#): > > a petitioner may file an application, which shall be sworn, and accompanying supporting documentation, setting forth the facts and circumstances justifying the issuance of an extreme risk protection order. Such application and supporting documentation shall be filed in the supreme court in the county in which the respondent resides. [https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/CVP/6342](https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/CVP/6342) > [@](#): > > Upon application of a petitioner pursuant to this article, the court may issue a temporary extreme risk protection order, ex parte or otherwise, to prohibit the respondent from purchasing, possessing or attempting to purchase or possess a firearm, rifle or shotgun, upon a finding that there is probable cause to believe the respondent is likely to engage in conduct that would result in serious harm to himself, herself or others [https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/CVP/6343](https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/CVP/6343) > [@](#): > > no sooner than three business days nor later than six business days after service of a temporary extreme risk protection order and, alternatively, no later than ten business days after service of an application under this article where no temporary extreme risk protection order has been issued, the supreme court shall hold a hearing to determine whether to issue a final extreme risk protection order and, when applicable, whether a firearm, rifle or shotgun surrendered by, or removed from, the respondent should be returned to the respondent. [. . .] > > At the hearing pursuant to subdivision one of this section, the petitioner shall have the burden of proving, by clear and convincing evidence, that the respondent is likely to engage in conduct that would result in serious harm to himself, herself or others Looks like due process to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/16 "2019-11-26T18:16:49Z")
Well, as Plato always said, there’s not a damn thing wrong with a country that makes sure the craziest people have the most weapons. ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/17 "2019-11-26T21:08:40Z")
Thanks for the cites. It clears up my concerns with the red flag protocol in New York. Hopefully, this will establish precedence and guide the future of this concept as it spreads ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/18 "2019-11-27T04:03:28Z")
> [@LH75](#): > > Thanks for the cites. It clears up my concerns with the red flag protocol in New York. Hopefully, this will establish precedence and guide the future of this concept as it spreads Nothing about this case had anything to do with red-flag laws, so it will establish nothing about their legality. Right now, fourteen states and DC have some version of red-flag laws. There will be plenty of opportunities to adjudicate them. As of last month New York already had 129 red flags in effect. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2019, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-hear-about-the-red-flag-law-thing-in-upstate-new-york/843944/19 "2019-11-28T00:36:19Z")
> [@LH75](#): > > There are people who believe that someone is a danger to self and others simply because they own a gun. Certainly an arguable position, statistically. Remember that about 80% of the people in this country own _zero_ guns. So you have to wonder about the mental attitude of the minority who choose to own a gun. And especially those who own many guns. But that seems to have nothing to do with this case. This is just another drunken wife-beater, but who has lots of similar friends.