# You know, it WAS a Golden Age - Mid Century U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 2, 2016, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700 "2016-03-02T02:37:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/21 "2016-03-03T17:26:47Z")
> [@bump](#): > > What’s your point? ANYTHING that benefits the population at large will primarily help straight, white Christian males more than anyone else, save straight, white Christian females. > > I think the question is really where is the money going? Do you? You’d be another straight, white, probably Christian, certainly male then: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/vd9aIamXjQI/maxresdefault.jpg "No Viet Cong. Called Me Nigger") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd9aIamXjQI) ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/22 "2016-03-03T17:50:07Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Your graph is from a right-wing site (and is not even backed with discernable citations). :eek: > Pro-tip: If you want creditability get real data, not right-wing blabberings. > > Nevertheless: > Your own cited site shows $1.5 trillion spent on Health Care. I’m not sure where he gets that figure, but much of it is for relatively new programs, and these healh care costs have ballooned recently, especially with the Bush-led payoff to Big Pharma a decade ago. Pensions have also grown due to Boomer retirements. If you lower “total government spending” on the graph by 5% of GDP just to account for these increases, and by another 2.5% (aggregate interest on national debt, caused in large measure by Bush-Cheney War and tax cuts) today’s spending on that chart would show as _much less than_ that of the Reagan 1980’s. > > Hope this helps fight your ignorance, **Deeg**. Actual amount spent on healthcare – including out-of-pocket payments, Medicare, Medicaid, VA, private health insurance, etc. – in 2014 was $3 trillion, but the [breakdown](https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Statistics-Trends-and-Reports/NationalHealthExpendData/Downloads/PieChartSourcesExpenditures2014.pdf)is this: Of that $3 trillion: [ul] [li]73% of monies spent came from health insurance.[/li][/ul] Of that 73%: [ul] [li]33% of the health insurance was private insurance; [/li][li]10% of was Medicaid (federal payments); [/li][li]20% was Medicare;[/li][li]4% was VA, DoD, and CHIP;[/li][li]6% was Medicaid state and local.[/li][/ul] Government programs as a percentage of overall healthcare spending are fairly low on the list. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/23 "2016-03-03T18:37:54Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I think the question is really where is the money going? If in say… 1960, the Federal government was able to do all the things that I listed in my previous post, and today, they’re having to borrow like there’s no tomorrow to do lesser things, where’s the big black hole of money? Don’t you read blogs? 😛 The portion of income siphoned off by the top 1% is much greater today than it was throughout the middle of the 20th century. It’s a left-wing talking point that the funds once used for public purposes now feed the consumption of the super-rich … but, political talking-point or not, _ **it is a true point.** _ > [@bump](#): > > I suspect it’s the growth of social programs like Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare that have sucked up that portion of the Federal budget, for good or ill. This familiar reasoning pattern lets the tail wag the dog. Social Security is a self-financing pension program; relating it to the rest of the federal budget is ignorant. Medicare is not self-financing, but its high costs reflect the high costs of healthcare in this country. As I tried to suggest in the post before yours, but without fully connecting the dots, those costs _must be assumed_ by either the private or public sector unless we reduce health-care coverage or lower its costs. Figuring out how to reduce health-care costs is very important but beyond the scope of this thread (beyond noting that the GOP-led bonanza for Big Pharma is not part of a solution). But it’s very misleading to blame the government-paid portion of those high costs on government, or to suggest that such transfer payments must be offset by reductions in public works. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/24 "2016-03-03T18:47:45Z")
[quote=“up\_the\_junction, post:21, topic:747700”] Do you? You’d be another straight, white, probably Christian, certainly male then: [/QUOTE] The country was 85% white in 1960. That means that ANYTHING that was for the benefit of everyone was predominantly for the benefit of white people. And the numbers have changed, but white people are still a majority. And ultimately, when it was a golden age for 85% of the population, that’s hard to argue that it wasn’t a golden age. Even the other “golden ages” in history have had their small groups of people for whom it was at best, a pot metal age. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/25 "2016-03-03T19:42:09Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > A Hoover Dam or TVA scale project would be quite unthinkable today, public housing and monuments are the rare project indeed. Think we’d ever build something like the St Louis Arch today? The Lincoln Memorial? Hard to think we would. We’re the generation that decided that we’d eat our free lunch and leave significant works for the next generation, if ever. Hoover Dam - $750 million in current dollars Gateway Arch - $180 million in current dollars Central artery/Tunnel Project AKA “Boston Big Dig” - $24.3 billion One World Trade Center AKA “Freedom Tower” AKA “Tallest building in North America” - $3.9 billion Dulles Transit Extension, Washington DC - $6.2 billion Otay Mesa East land port, San Diego, CA - $716 million Chicago O’Hare Modernization - $8 billion Crescent Rail Corridor Expansion - $9 billion Phillips 66 LPG Export Facility - $1 billion Manhattan Hudson Yards development - $20 billion New NY Bridge (Tappan Zee Bridge replacement) - $3.9 billion National September 11 Memorial & Museum - about $500 million (I think) ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/26 "2016-03-03T19:58:36Z")
> [@bump](#): > > The country was 85% white in 1960. That means that ANYTHING that was for the benefit of everyone was predominantly for the benefit of white people. And the numbers have changed, but white people are still a majority. > > And ultimately, when it was a golden age for 85% of the population, that’s hard to argue that it wasn’t a golden age. 18 million people in 1960 said otherwise. Have you heard the phrase _representative democracy_. The great problem is if you don’t deal with inequality in the good times it comes back ten fold in the hard. And right now, you have an almighty fuck up of a dysfunctional, institutionally racist, non-society. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/27 "2016-03-03T20:51:00Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > 18 million people in 1960 said otherwise. Have you heard the phrase _representative democracy_. > > The great problem is if you don’t deal with inequality in the good times it comes back ten fold in the hard. And right now, you have an almighty fuck up of a dysfunctional, institutionally racist, non-society. I think there’s less inclination to have to deal with those issues during the “good times” because even for the marginalized groups, things aren’t so bad. It’s later when you start having wars and economic downturns that the marginalized groups start to feel the effects of inequality more acutely. ---
**Author:** ![Turpentine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Turpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turpentine)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/28 "2016-03-03T21:05:26Z")
> [@bump](#): > > And ultimately, when it was a golden age for 85% of the population, that’s hard to argue that it wasn’t a golden age. Even the other “golden ages” in history have had their small groups of people for whom it was at best, a pot metal age. I don’t get it- women only made up 15% of the population back then? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/29 "2016-03-03T21:11:10Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I wish you’d read my complete post – it was only short – before clicking Reply. I acknowledged your stat, just thought it helpful ignorance-fighting to remind you that yours was a right-wing propaganda site; there are plenty of sites with real stats. Most amusing that your response to that was to link to … Forbes! :eek: 😛 > > But somehow you completely missed the key point of my post. > > What do you say to the point _ **that spending is significantly less than under Reagan when interest payments and higher healthcare spending are ignored** _ ? Awesome. You’re just gonna ignore any cite that disagrees with your view. I suppose you think the Golden Age is better without healthcare. What was the interest payments in the 50’s for debt piled up during WW II? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/30 "2016-03-03T21:30:08Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The OP is largely correct. We built the Interstate system in those years, though we didn’t really plan for how to pay for their future maintenance and as a result we’re seeing highway budgets spread far too thin. > > A Hoover Dam or TVA scale project would be quite unthinkable today, public housing and monuments are the rare project indeed. Think we’d ever build something like the St Louis Arch today? The Lincoln Memorial? Hard to think we would. We’re the generation that decided that we’d eat our free lunch and leave significant works for the next generation, if ever. > [@msmith537](#): > > Hoover Dam - $750 million in current dollars > > Gateway Arch - $180 million in current dollars > > Central artery/Tunnel Project AKA “Boston Big Dig” - $24.3 billion > > One World Trade Center AKA “Freedom Tower” AKA “Tallest building in North America” - $3.9 billion > > Dulles Transit Extension, Washington DC - $6.2 billion > > Otay Mesa East land port, San Diego, CA - $716 million > > Chicago O’Hare Modernization - $8 billion > > Crescent Rail Corridor Expansion - $9 billion > > Phillips 66 LPG Export Facility - $1 billion > > Manhattan Hudson Yards development - $20 billion > > New NY Bridge (Tappan Zee Bridge replacement) - $3.9 billion > > National September 11 Memorial & Museum - about $500 million (I think) [MLK Jr. Memorial; built in 2011.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr._Memorial) Emphasis added to **Bob’s** post. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/31 "2016-03-05T02:57:42Z")
I just read a fascinating book, “The Road Taken” by Henry Petroski. The US infrastructure is deteriorating and no one has any plans to do much about it. It is not quite true that no provision was made for maintenance of the Interstate system; it was assumed that things like gasoline taxes would go up with inflation and they haven’t. And taxes in general are held down. Maybe something will be done if a few more bridges fall down or there is a major dam disaster. And taxes are much lower today. Yes revenues are up but so is the population. In 1960, the highest marginal rate of income tax was 91%. And the amount of money going to defense is obscene. And counter-productive. Except for Gulf I and Grenada, the US has not won a war since WWII. Viet Nam was a disaster. Korea was a semi-success. All the rest have ended no better than they started, often much worse. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/32 "2016-03-05T14:23:02Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Hoover Dam - $750 million in current dollars > > Gateway Arch - $180 million in current dollars > > Central artery/Tunnel Project AKA “Boston Big Dig” - $24.3 billion > > One World Trade Center AKA “Freedom Tower” AKA “Tallest building in North America” - $3.9 billion > > Dulles Transit Extension, Washington DC - $6.2 billion > > Otay Mesa East land port, San Diego, CA - $716 million > > Chicago O’Hare Modernization - $8 billion > > Crescent Rail Corridor Expansion - $9 billion > > Phillips 66 LPG Export Facility - $1 billion > > Manhattan Hudson Yards development - $20 billion > > New NY Bridge (Tappan Zee Bridge replacement) - $3.9 billion > > National September 11 Memorial & Museum - about $500 million (I think) > [@John\_Mace](#): > > [MLK Jr. Memorial; built in 2011.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr._Memorial) > > Emphasis added to **Bob’s** post. I wonder how much some of the older projects would cost if built today. I haven’t found a good apples/apples comparison. I expect some differences in labor costs and environmental review, but I’m not sure how much, or what else factors in. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/33 "2016-03-05T15:19:24Z")
Yeah, right. The Golden Age when girls and coloreds were kept from the top, when there were no homosexuals, when wife and child beating and rape were de facto legal, and most of all, when there was no such concept as “environmentalism.” The planet was damn near made hostile to people, but heh, things were better then. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/34 "2016-03-05T16:07:03Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I wonder how much some of the older projects would cost if built today. I haven’t found a good apples/apples comparison. I expect some differences in labor costs and environmental review, but I’m not sure how much, or what else factors in. Did you not see that the first two “older projects” were listed with costs in current dollars? But yeah, per **Annie-Xmas** , deny decent jobs to women and minorities, and it will be a golden age for White Men as they rush to fill all the jobs that are “freed up” for them. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/35 "2016-03-05T16:23:05Z")
$1.3 Trillion spent so far on the F-35 fighter jet. Think how many roads and bridges that money could improve. We’re not spending less, we just have fucked up priorities. > **[Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II)** > > The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II is an American family of single-seat, single-engine, all-weather stealth multirole combat aircraft that is intended to perform both air superiority and strike missions. It is also able to provide electronic warfare and intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance capabilities. Lockheed Martin is the prime F-35 contractor, with principal partners Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems. The aircraft has three main variants: the conventional takeoff and landing ... ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/36 "2016-03-05T18:26:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Did you not see that the first two “older projects” were listed with costs in current dollars Do you not understand the difference between “current dollars” but still built 50+ years ago and actually building it today? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/37 "2016-03-05T18:43:13Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Do you not understand the difference between “current dollars” but still built 50+ years ago and actually building it today? Like using modern technology? Well, I suppose we could look at China’s Three Gorges Dam as a comparison. It cost an estimated $26 billion US, compared to $750 million in current US for the Hoover Dam. But three Gorges is something like six times the size of the Hoover Dam and generates eleven times as much power. Plus I think there were some additional costs to relocate 1.5 million Chinese people. But in the US, the main limiting factor is that there aren’t a whole lot of places to put Hoover Dam sized dams anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/38 "2016-03-05T18:58:01Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Like using modern technology? Modern technology, modern environmental regulations, labor rules, infrastructure, etc. I expect some of those to make things cheaper, and some to make things more expensive. I thought of nuclear power plants. The oldest operational reactor that I know of is at Nine Mile Point in NY. That 600 MW reactor cost $800MM in 2007 dollars and started commercial operation in 1969. But the second unit started commercial operation 20 years later and cost 10x as much (inflation adjusted) for only twice the capacity. [https://www.eia.gov/nuclear/state/2008/newyork/](https://www.eia.gov/nuclear/state/2008/newyork/) Now these aren’t the same design. I don’t know how much of the cost difference is from the newer GE BWR or other factors. Recall that we typically look at a consumer basket of goods for a deflator, but other prices can vary wildly. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/39 "2016-03-05T19:10:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > [MLK Jr. Memorial; built in 2011.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr._Memorial) > > Emphasis added to **Bob’s** post. I’m guessing you haven’t been to the Lincoln and MLK memorials. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/40 "2016-03-05T21:37:37Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I’m guessing you haven’t been to the Lincoln and MLK memorials. Would you like to explain what your point is? **BobLibDem** said that building of new memorials is rare today. He was wrong. Four large memorials have been built in DC in the past generation: Korean War Memorial, National WWII Memorial, FDR and MLK Memorials. Who knows how many small memorials have built in DC, let alone the whole country? It is simply not the case that government is smaller now than in the ‘Golden Age’, or is collecting less tax money, or is spending less. Rather, it is the case that certain things are vacuuming up a large share of government money, leaving less money for repairing interstates and unsexy things like that. Health care, Social Security, public schools, the military, and pensions for government employees are vacuum up enormous amounts of money that are growing every year. As they take up more, there’s less money left over for everything else, even though taxes are higher now than in 1950. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700.md?page=3)