# You know, it WAS a Golden Age - Mid Century U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 2, 2016, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700 "2016-03-02T02:37:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/41 "2016-03-05T21:57:09Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Would you like to explain what your point is? That the Washington MLK memorial is, sadly, not remotely comparable to the Lincoln Memorial. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/42 "2016-03-05T22:05:48Z")
> [@j666](#): > > The standard - and justified - response is always, “Sure, if you were a straight, white, christian male,” but that ignores a very important belief that we’ve lost, that the country and her people are worth investment. Although if you’re pegging your “mid-century” period as going through the end of the 70’s, then it very much _was_ a Golden Age for minorities and women. Those groups were vastly better off politically and economically (both absolute and relative) at the end of the era than the beginning. While it’s true there’s not the same “things were better back then” nostalgia white males often get about the era, there’s plenty of nostalgia for the Civil Rights and Feminism movements of the 60’s as being eras when progress was being made very rapidly and the movements and communities had an optimism that (according to some) they don’t today. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/43 "2016-03-06T04:58:15Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Health care, Social Security, public schools, the military, and pensions for government employees are vacuum up enormous amounts of money that are growing every year. According [this chart](https://www.sdvfp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/milexp-percentage-gdp.jpg) US military spending as a percentage of GDP has been largely flat over the last 40 years and is considerably lower than it was in the 50’s. I’m just not buying the argument that the government is spending less now than in the 50’s in any meaningful way. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/44 "2016-03-06T08:02:56Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > According [this chart](https://www.sdvfp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/milexp-percentage-gdp.jpg) US military spending as a percentage of GDP has been largely flat over the last 40 years and is considerably lower than it was in the 50’s. I’m just not buying the argument that the government is spending less now than in the 50’s in any meaningful way. Have you got a chart for the relative growth in GDP? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/45 "2016-03-06T14:29:39Z")
Some insist on using stats from one particular source as though, even ignoring any context, one set of stats is the be-all and end-all. I’ll illustrate the need to keep awake when considering stats with the following: > [@msmith537](#): > > Hoover Dam - $750 million in current dollars > > Gateway Arch - $180 million in current dollars > > Central artery/Tunnel Project AKA “Boston Big Dig” - $24.3 billion > … Please note that GDP in current dollars is about 18 times larger today than it was when Hoover Dam was built. To best compare apples with apples, these pricetags should best be measured as a share of the total U.S. economy. If you did this, the Hoover Dam would be one of the very most expensive projects on your list, though still smaller than the “Big Dig.” (How much of the Big Dig cost was land acquisition?) The Hoover Dam’s nominal $49 billion cost was almost 0.1% of one year’s GDP in 1933, at the peak of its construction. The Big Dig was less than 0.2% of the 2005 GDP. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/46 "2016-03-06T15:22:15Z")
> [@bump](#): > > How’d they do it? Where’d the money go? What else are we doing with it? Is it worth it? Welfare. Obamacare. Tons of other “entitlement” (a/k/a votebuying) programs. And yes, the infrastructure is crumbling. Can’t buy votes by paving roads. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/47 "2016-03-06T16:05:56Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > (a/k/a votebuying) programs. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/48 "2016-03-06T17:30:36Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > To best compare apples with apples, these pricetags should best be measured as a share of the total U.S. economy. If you did this, the Hoover Dam would be one of the very most expensive projects on your list, though still smaller than the “Big Dig.” And that final price tag in Boston was wildly beyond all initial estimates. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/49 "2016-03-06T17:56:30Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The Hoover Dam’s nominal $49 billion cost was almost 0.1% of one year’s GDP in 1933, at the peak of its construction. The Big Dig was less than 0.2% of the 2005 GDP. I’m going to scrub your math a bit. The Hoover Dam was built over 6 years, during which the average GDP was $69.95B (1933 was an unusually low year for GDP). Hoover Dam cost was $49M (your typo had billion), which was 0.07% of that average GDP. The GDP in 2016 was $17.35T (that’s trillion), so a project built in that time frame would have to cost about $12B to amount the same % of GDP as the Hoover Dam. The Manhattan Hudson Yard Development is well over that amount. The Big Dig cost $14.7B, with construction between 1991-2007 (yikes!!), where the average GDP was $9.83T, so the BD was 0.15% of average GDP. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/50 "2016-03-07T22:28:42Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Please note that GDP in current dollars is about 18 times larger today than it was when Hoover Dam was built. To best compare apples with apples, these pricetags should best be measured as a share of the total U.S. economy. If you did this, the Hoover Dam would be one of the very most expensive projects on your list, though still smaller than the “Big Dig.” (How much of the Big Dig cost was land acquisition?) > > The Hoover Dam’s nominal $49 billion cost was almost 0.1% of one year’s GDP in 1933, at the peak of its construction. The Big Dig was less than 0.2% of the 2005 GDP. Change in GDP is just one of several ways to compare the value of dollars over time. I used a bundle of consumer goods that include dams, monuments, and large suspension bridges:D The point is, there are still a ton of large-scale projects being built. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/51 "2016-03-08T12:32:32Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Hoover Dam - $750 million in current dollars > > Gateway Arch - $180 million in current dollars > > Central artery/Tunnel Project AKA “Boston Big Dig” - $24.3 billion > > One World Trade Center AKA “Freedom Tower” AKA “Tallest building in North America” - $3.9 billion > > Dulles Transit Extension, Washington DC - $6.2 billion > > Otay Mesa East land port, San Diego, CA - $716 million > > Chicago O’Hare Modernization - $8 billion > > Crescent Rail Corridor Expansion - $9 billion > > Phillips 66 LPG Export Facility - $1 billion > > Manhattan Hudson Yards development - $20 billion > > New NY Bridge (Tappan Zee Bridge replacement) - $3.9 billion > > National September 11 Memorial & Museum - about $500 million (I think) I rather doubt the Hoover Dam and Gateway Arch estimates that you provided. Some of the others are private enterprises designed to make money, not inspire future generations. I stand by my point that the great structures and monuments are no longer being built- the Vietnam Wall and MLK memorials are orders of magnitude less in grandeur than the Lincoln Memorial and Washington Monument. Yeah, you can spend a lot of money on airports and rail expansions, but they aren’t for uplifting the human spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/52 "2016-03-08T12:47:28Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The OP is largely correct. We built the Interstate system in those years, though we didn’t really plan for how to pay for their future maintenance and as a result we’re seeing highway budgets spread far too thin. > > A Hoover Dam or TVA scale project would be quite unthinkable today, public housing and monuments are the rare project indeed. Think we’d ever build something like the St Louis Arch today? The Lincoln Memorial? Hard to think we would. We’re the generation that decided that we’d eat our free lunch and leave significant works for the next generation, if ever. Or Mount Rushmore? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/53 "2016-03-09T02:56:06Z")
But my primary point was that we paid our taxes and - as much as we griped - were proud to do so, because we knew we were investing in our society. My first understanding of community came from my mother explaining the relationship between schools and roads, and taxes. When I was six. I got it, and I was in a “private” school. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/54 "2016-03-09T03:25:44Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I rather doubt the Hoover Dam and Gateway Arch estimates that you provided. Take it up with the Internet then. Any site I found estimated the Hoover Dam at between $600 and $800 million in current US dollars. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Some of the others are private enterprises designed to make money, not inspire future generations. I stand by my point that the great structures and monuments are no longer being built- the Vietnam Wall and MLK memorials are orders of magnitude less in grandeur than the Lincoln Memorial and Washington Monument. Yeah, you can spend a lot of money on airports and rail expansions, but they aren’t for uplifting the human spirit. They no longer build Great Pyramids and Hanging Gardens of Babylon either. So what? The Hoover Dam wasn’t built to “uplift the human spirit”. It was built to uplift the Colorado River to generate electricity. What would you like to see a giant monument built to? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/55 "2016-03-09T13:04:14Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > What would you like to see a giant monument built to? Imperial folly and a hugely dysfunctional relationship between the political class and the military-industrial complex. You have 19 to choose from; > **[List of aircraft carriers in service](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_service)** > > This is a list of aircraft carriers which are currently in service, under maintenance or refit, in reserve, under construction, or being updated. An aircraft carrier is a warship with a full-length flight deck, hangar and facilities for arming, deploying, and recovering aircraft. The list only refers to the status of the ship, not availability or condition of an air wing. This includes helicopter carriers and also amphibious assault ships, if the vessel's primary purpose is to carry, arm, depl ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/56 "2016-03-09T19:04:05Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I wish you’d read my complete post – it was only short – before clicking Reply. I acknowledged your stat, just thought it helpful ignorance-fighting to remind you that yours was a right-wing propaganda site; there are plenty of sites with real stats. Most amusing that your response to that was to link to … Forbes! :eek: 😛 > > But somehow you completely missed the key point of my post. > > What do you say to the point _ **that spending is significantly less than under Reagan when interest payments and higher healthcare spending are ignored** _ ? If you only measure him to his navel Shaquille O’Neill really isn’t that tall. Government is taxing and spending more than ever has it is just spending it on different things. In the 1950s defense spending was about 65% of the federal budget, now it is 20%. Infrastructure spending in the 1950s was about 4% of the federal budget then, now it is about 3.5%. The government now spends most of its money on transfer programs like Social Security, various forms of welfare, and healthcare. So instead of roads and bridges, we get new hips for old people. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/57 "2016-03-09T19:28:52Z")
> [@bump](#): > > What’s your point? ANYTHING that benefits the population at large will primarily help straight, white Christian males more than anyone else, save straight, white Christian females. You mean like all those FHA mortgages that white families could get, but blacks couldn’t because their neighborhoods were red-lined? Or the state universities that blacks weren’t allowed into, but instead could only attend a separate-and-unequal black college? Or the same state universities that women weren’t allowed into, but had to go to a separate-and-unequal women’s college instead? Girls just a couple years ahead of me at my high school in Virginia had to settle for Mary Washington College, while the guys with the same credentials got into U.Va. That’s just off the top of my head. There was lotsa shit from that era that benefited _just_ white males; don’t know about the Christian part. Though, wait a second, there were country clubs that my dad wouldn’t have been able to get admitted to because he was Jewish. (He didn’t want to join them anyway, but that sort of place is useful for making business connections and stuff, and Jews were excluded from many such places, even in post-WWII America.) ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700/58 "2016-03-12T14:05:08Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > That’s just off the top of my head. There was lotsa shit from that era that benefited _just_ white males; don’t know about the Christian part. Public religious monuments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-it-was-a-golden-age-mid-century-u-s/747700.md?page=2)