# You know what? Fuck unions after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474 "2006-11-22T22:13:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/1 "2006-11-22T22:13:59Z")
Or specifically, fuck whatever union it is that the mechanics at my local car dealership are in. As I’ve posted in a couple of other threads, I’m having problems with my car. The sort of problems where, when the thing finally breaks completely, the car stops dead and can’t be re-started. I need to have some little sensor replaced and the only place that apparently has the super-special tool to snap the fucking thing out of its housing is the dealership. So a separate little “fuck yourself with that very same special tool” goes to Nissan for designing the car with parts that can only be fixed at a dealership that charges twice what fucking Midas would charge for the same job. Anyway, so the job takes about 45 minutes. Open the hood, pop out the sensor, replace the sensor, done. I work until 3 and can get the car to the dealership by 3:30. But the fucking mechanics’ union refuses to allow their precious fucking mechanics to work past 3. So instead of being able to take the car to the dealership and have them do this less-than-an-hour repair and be on my fucking way, if I want to have the car fixed I have to drop it off in the morning and inconvenience one or more of my friends to haul me out to work and haul me back again at the end of the day. And that’s even assuming that the motherfuckers actually get to it that day and don’t turn back into flowers or goddamn lumps of sugar or whatever happens to them when the clock tolls 3. And, I hasten to remind you, for merely double the price that the same job would otherwise cost me because of Nissan’s prorietary tool scam. So fuck you, mechanics, and your “I won’t work normal business hours” bullshit. Double-fuck you, mechanics’ union, for continuing the perversion of what was once a noble struggle for the rights of workers and for social justice into the “suck everything you can from the benefits trough like a goddamn fat fucking sow” mentality that makes people like me who have long been ardent supporters of unions tell one of them to go fuck themselves. My great-grandfather got his head caved in fighting to unionize a coal mine and he’s rolling in his grave with what the likes of you have done with his blood. ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/2 "2006-11-22T22:27:49Z")
Good rant. +1 for you - sodomy with a special tool :eek: I thought I was going to be disappointed when I discovered the title wasn’t ‘Fuck onions after all’. I definetly do agree. Unions were, at one time, necessary. But, they’ve gotten out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/3 "2006-11-22T22:32:05Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Anyway, so the job takes about 45 minutes. Open the hood, pop out the sensor, replace the sensor, done. I work until 3 and can get the car to the dealership by 3:30. But the fucking mechanics’ union refuses to allow their precious fucking mechanics to work past 3. Well, if the mechanics are on a shift from, say, 7:00 AM to 3:00 PM, then it doesn’t seem unreasonable that their union would prevent them from working after the end of their shift. Seems like the logical thing to do in that case would be to have one early shift and one late shift of mechanics, so the customers who bring their cars in before work and those who bring them in after work would both have a chance of getting same-day service. Who’s making the work-scheduling decisions at this dealership? > [@Otto](#): > > Double-fuck you, mechanics’ union, for continuing the perversion of what was once a noble struggle for the rights of workers and for social justice into the “suck everything you can from the benefits trough like a goddamn fat fucking sow” mentality that makes people like me who have long been ardent supporters of unions tell one of them to go fuck themselves. My great-grandfather got his head caved in fighting to unionize a coal mine and he’s rolling in his grave with what the likes of you have done with his blood. If the union is really managing to force the employers into letting its mechanics work only a six-hour day or less, I’d agree that that’s a greedy abuse of bargaining power. But if the union is simply stipulating that the mechanics not be allowed to work overtime after the end of a normal full-day shift without getting overtime pay … eh, I’m not sure that falls into the trough-sucking-sow category. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/4 "2006-11-22T22:33:25Z")
You want to rely on the kindness and humanity of Citigroup, Enron, and Wal-Mart, you go right ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Autumn\_Almanac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d26b3c/32.png) [@Autumn\_Almanac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autumn_Almanac)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/5 "2006-11-22T22:33:44Z")
[QUOTE=brewha] I definetly do agree. Unions were, at one time, necessary. But, they’ve gotten out of hand. [/QUOTE] Unions are the worst possible system, except for all the other ones. Without unions, workers absolutely would get royally screwed by management. Unions ensure that management (and customers) _also_ get royally screwed, so at least everyone’s even. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/6 "2006-11-22T22:52:21Z")
[QUOTE=Autumn Almanac] Unions are the worst possible system, except for all the other ones. Without unions, workers absolutely would get royally screwed by management. Unions ensure that management (and customers) _also_ get royally screwed, so at least everyone’s even. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] Except many parts of the country have hardly any unions at all and I rarely hear about Draconian working conditions from the mechanics there. Can’t it just be sometimes that a group of people learned how to completely game the system screwing everyone else in the process and that is all there is to it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/7 "2006-11-22T23:06:00Z")
Auto mechanics are Republicans? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/8 "2006-11-22T23:31:28Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] You want to rely on the kindness and humanity of Citigroup, Enron, and Wal-Mart, you go right ahead. [/QUOTE] If Citigroup, Enron or Wal-Mart can get my car fixed for half what the union shop is charging and without fucking up my day and the day of the person I’ll have to shanghai at least twice for a ride, and do it in less than a week, then more power to 'em. I forgive the labor movement a lot. I even forgave the labor movement when the union I was in through their inflexibility forced me to choose between quitting my job or dropping out of school a few years back. I don’t cross picket lines and, the above snark aside, I boycott Wal-Mart in part because of their shitty labor practices. But this is just it. When the workers fuck over their fellow workers, i.e. me and the unionized employee who’ll be schlepping me around next week, then fuck them right back. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/9 "2006-11-23T00:06:03Z")
I hear you. My grandfather, as good a man as ever went fishing, was a Teamster. Worked for them struck for them, fought for them. The great state of Texas was not exactly a welcoming environment for union organizing. And the Teamsters fucked him. Fucked him _hard_! Heard all manner of other stories like that, and most of them are no doubt true. But that isn’t unions, that’s people. You want to attract the worst people in the world, just spread some money and power in the water, and you’ll be surrounded by flinty-eyed opportunists and greedly glad-handers before you can say Jack Robinson! The changes that unions struggled for have become accepted as normal, so normal that it doesn’t occur to us that it is not etched in stone. If the guys who write the payroll checks can pull a dollar out of your pocket and put it in their own, you better believe they will. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/10 "2006-11-23T00:29:16Z")
So basically, both you and your mechanics’ shifts end at 3pm, but you want get out on time and you want your mechanics to stay till 4:15? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/11 "2006-11-23T00:43:40Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > When the workers fuck over their fellow workers, i.e. me and the unionized employee who’ll be schlepping me around next week, then fuck them right back. But who is it who’s actually fucking you over in this case? I’d be happy to join you in your outrage if I were confident I wasn’t just getting mad at the wrong set of people. Is the mechanics’ union really greedily extorting unreasonably short working hours from the employers, with selfish disregard for the convenience of customers? (And if so, is there someplace I could read up on their negotiating tactics? I would be pretty damn impressed, albeit also somewhat irritated and disapproving, if it turned out that—in today’s climate of rapidly weakening labor protections and harsh anti-unionization tactics—there existed a union that actually managed to extort a _six-hour workday_ for its fortunate members. Mercy, the workers’ paradise has arrived and I hadn’t even noticed! :eek: :dubious: ) Or is the Nissan dealership scheduling a single shift of mechanics from, say, 7:00 to 3:00, and refusing to hire a second shift (or pay the first shift overtime) so that customers can get their cars serviced after midafternoon? In that case, I’d say it’s the dealership screwing you over, not the union. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/12 "2006-11-23T01:08:41Z")
Somewhere, there is a mechanic bitching that he can’t get somebody on the line to answer questions about his kid’s SSI benefits or something when his shift ends at 3:00. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/13 "2006-11-23T02:46:40Z")
Buy Ford. My dealership’s service bay is open till 7 AND on Saturdays 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Klaatu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Klaatu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klaatu)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/14 "2006-11-23T04:00:24Z")
[QUOTE=ZipperJJ] Buy Ford. My dealership’s service bay is open till 7 AND on Saturdays 😉 [/QUOTE] Well the reason they are open all the time is because it’s a Ford. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/15 "2006-11-23T04:35:49Z")
In many (most) parts of the country technicians are not union. Even if they are not union they probably don’t want to work past 8 hours each day. Some guys will, many won’t. Bringing a car in at 3:30 and expecting it back in 45 minutes for a 45 minute job is well how do I say this nicely? Oh yeah, can I have some of what you are smoking? It has got be be way better than anything I have. You car comes in at 3:15, it takes say 10 minutes to write up, and say another 10 minutes to get parked and sent to dispatch. Now here is the kicker. The shop probably doesn’t have guys sitting around drinking coffee at 3:35 in the afternoon just waiting for you to arrive. If the shop is successful, I can pretty much guarantee that they won’t have anybody standing around. So your car goes into the queue. Now the people that dropped their car off at 8AM have this silly notion that their car should get worked on before some wanker that brings their car in at 3:15PM. Pretty unreasonable of them don’t ya think? Anyway, lets suppose that by some miracle that your car does get into the shop within 15 minutes. We are now at 3:50 and a wrench has yet to be spun. The next problem is your engine is red fucking hot, and your technician is not big on 3rd degree burns. So he opens the hood, and goes for parts and coffee while it cools down. Let’s say for giggles that by 4PM the car is cool enough to work on. Technician starts to work and gets done by 4:30. Now he has to turn in the paperwork and it has to get processed. Add 15 minutes minimum. More like 30 in many shops. Does your car get a wash? That is going to take time also. In fact I have seen the car wash take longer than an oil change at some shops. If you are very lucky you will be out of there at 5 PM. Oh, and by the way Midas can buy the special tool (if in fact it requires one) if they want. Also you want to go to Midas for car service? :eek: You are big into anal rape I guess. Holy crap dude, run don’t walk away from Midas. The only people that fuck more customers than Midas is Iffy lube. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/16 "2006-11-23T05:07:01Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] So basically, both you and your mechanics’ shifts end at 3pm, but you want get out on time and you want your mechanics to stay till 4:15? [/QUOTE] I want the union to have enough flexibility that a mechanic would be able to stay until 4:15, or a mechanic could start at 8:15 so that his or her 8 hour shift would run until 4:15. > [@black rabbit](#): > > Somewhere, there is a mechanic bitching that he can’t get somebody on the line to answer questions about his kid’s SSI benefits or something when his shift ends at 3:00. My call center is staffed 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year including holidays. > [@Rick](#): > > (stuff about various timeframes for work beginning) Fine, so then how about a mechanic who can start at 9 so s/he can stay until 5? The issue is the inflexibility of the union. > [@Rick](#): > > Oh, and by the way Midas can buy the special tool (if in fact it requires one) if they want. Also you want to go to Midas for car service? I don’t know if Midas can buy the special tool or not. That Nissan builds the cars requiring non-standard tools to service them is bullshit. I have a hard time blaming Midas for not buying every single specialty tool for every single make and model of car out there. As far as using Midas for service, Midas would have charged me $125 for this repair. The dealership will charge at least $250 if not more. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/17 "2006-11-23T05:23:44Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Fine, so then how about a mechanic who can start at 9 so s/he can stay until 5? The issue is the inflexibility of the union. If so, then that indeed sucks. But I’m still a bit puzzled how you know it’s the union making **all** the decisions about work schedules, rather than the dealership saying, e.g., “We want all our mechanics to start work at 7:00” and the union responding “Okay, but in that case they all have to stop work at 3:00 or else you have to pay them overtime”, which wouldn’t seem like an unreasonable response to me. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/18 "2006-11-23T05:44:03Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] But that isn’t unions, that’s people. You want to attract the worst people in the world, just spread some money and power in the water, and you’ll be surrounded by flinty-eyed opportunists and greedly glad-handers before you can say Jack Robinson! [/QUOTE] Wait, you lost me on this. Are you talking about CEO’s? Union bosses? Politicians? Lawyers? Special Interest types? Wal-Mart managers? Oil execs? Seems like the quoted part could apply to just about anyone. 😉 And **Otto** , while I can see how the union might have a part in this, I’d have to spread some of the well deserved venom towards the dealership as well for not getting whatever sort of deal is needed to serve their customers. The specifics in your case are truly fucked up. Rant on, this one is warranted. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/19 "2006-11-23T05:46:33Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Wait, you lost me on this. Are you talking about CEO’s? Union bosses? Politicians? Lawyers? Special Interest types? Wal-Mart managers? Oil execs? > > Seems like the quoted part could apply to just about anyone. Yeah, I think that was **luc** ’s point. ---
**Author:** ![Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enter_the_Flagon)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474/20 "2006-11-23T05:54:17Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] I want the union to have enough flexibility that a mechanic would be able to stay until 4:15, or a mechanic could start at 8:15 so that his or her 8 hour shift would run until 4:15. …Fine, so then how about a mechanic who can start at 9 so s/he can stay until 5? The issue is the inflexibility of the union.. [/QUOTE] But Otto, do you have any evidence that union is dictating what time the mechanics start work? I’d bet that it’s the dealership’s decision. [QUOTE=Otto] I don’t know if Midas can buy the special tool or not. That Nissan builds the cars requiring non-standard tools to service them is bullshit. [/QUOTE] But since automotive technology is continously evolving, new tools will always be necessary. That’s just progress. Would you rather be driving a car that utilizes 100 year-old technology? And anyhow, is that the union’s fault? [QUOTE=Otto] I have a hard time blaming Midas for not buying every single specialty tool for every single make and model of car out there. [/QUOTE] Good. Midas won’t buy that tool until they recognize a significant demand that they can capitalize upon. If you want to maximize the odds that Midas will have all the necessary tools to repair your car, then I guess that you _could_ buy an older example of a very popular model. [QUOTE=Otto] As far as using Midas for service, Midas would have charged me $125 for this repair. The dealership will charge at least $250 if not more. [/QUOTE] When I was a kid working at Midas, we didn’t have a single highly-skilled mechanic on our roster. Instead, we had guys who lacked training or experience. As soon as one of our guys got enough of either, he moved onto greener pastures. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-fuck-unions-after-all/381474.md?page=2)