You Know What I Think Better Than I Do?!?!

Izzy wrote:

So, because I addressed Badchad’s argument as summarized by Captain Amazing by analyzing it in terms of logical frames, you deem that my analysis had no connection either to Captain Amazing or Badchad. And even when the rather obvious connection was highlighted and established as a direct correspondence of rhetoric, you still see no connection — not at all.

It isn’t that you simply see my position as mistaken inasmuch as it opposes your own. It is the case that you see no connection at all. None at all. No connection. None. “Not at all”.

Intellectual dishonesty, indeed. :dubious:

Exactly. Apparently you were treating the argument as being something other than what it was, and thus subjecting it to a rebuttal. Your rebuttal had no connection to the actual argument that had been put forth. Feel free to demonstrate otherwise.

Right. See above.

Actually if you want to go down that road, one might make a case for a charge of intellectual dishonesty in pretending to destroy someone’s argument by pretending that it is something other than what it is. And particularly doing so in terse philosophical language that no one understands, so that one might seem to be brilliantly destroying the (imaginary) argument while actually doing nothing of the sort. But that’s only if you want to go down that road. :wink:

You know what? Even though I have poor debating skills (I get mad), I follow many of the GD threads religiously (insert pun here).

Because, similar to what Meatros said, I really want to learn.

However, some GD threads become hopelessly bogged down by semantics and posturing.

I’ve learned more in this Pit thread (with links) then I have in a month of GD. People are giving very open statements of belief and backing it up with well thought out arguments.

FWIW, the main problem with Christian literalists (IMHO) is that some parts of the Bible almost beg to be taken figuratively. And, as has been said before, there seem to be as many interpretations of Scripture as there are Christians. Doesn’t add much to the debate, I know, but someone had to say it in a non-confrontational way. I hope I accomplished that.

I’m not sure if I stated as such, but I too go to the great debates to learn and if I have something I think might be of interest, I add it.
I do think that some people get it in there head that all issues/debates have a clear cut answer and if only the opposition could see their position they would understand. While there are some issues that have clear cut right and wrong answers, there are some that don’t.

FWIW, I think you did accomplish that.

Izzy, I think I understand better what you were saying in earlier posts in this thread, and if either you or Captain Amazing want to take a fresh shot at the analysis of what we can for convenience call “Liberal Christianity” and its stance vis-à-vis Biblical interpretation and theological analysis of doctrine, I’d be more than willing. You see, I do see some fundamental principles of belief, and a coherent analytical system that is closely related to techniques of some of the sciences. And I would like to defend that on a plateau of respect for each others’ viewpoints – which you have always been willing to extend me, and I you. The present GD thread has been so trainwrecked that we’re picking up pieces of boxcars from here to Des Moines, but that is no obstacle to starting afresh in another one.

Well, obviously I know what you think better than you do.
:smiley:
sorry, sorry, 1000 apologies to Poly

Some people, Polycarp included, are misunderstanding what Polycarp is actually thinking. Let me clear it up …

Poly,

Good idea but I don’t know if I’m the right guy. What I was doing (& I assume Captain Amazing as well) was summarizing the logical basis for badchad’s arguments. While I admit to having some general symphathy for that argument I could not maintain my end of a debate on the subject because - as mentioned earlier - I don’t know enough about the subjects. So it is possible that you do have some objective way of separating literal from non-literal teachings, but I might not be able to decide if it is valid. What made badchad a more interesting debater is that he seemed to have more a of a command of the NT.

But if such a debate does ensue, I will follow along and pop in if I happen to have anything intelligent to say.

:slight_smile:

I think this speaks to the inherent misunderstanding that leads to dispute in such a debate. In our Protestant America, the Christians we generally encounter create a confusion in our view of the religion. Sola scriptura Protestants tend to see Christianity as synonomous with bibliolatry, that the religion is the book and vice versa. So when we encounter people hedging around Bible passages, it might sometimes seem like they’re being cafeteria Christians and intellectually dishonest. However, there’s no reason to presume as a starting point that the religion is wholly embodied in that one text, and alot of reasons to think that it isn’t. For centuries, the Roman Catholic Church has taken the Bible as simply one piece of evidence towards which human reason is to be applied, with theological conclusions deduced not just from the text but from the philosophical principles that the Bible hints at but does not contain completely. I would call that Christianity, and not just an individual’s interpretations but a somewhat coherent system of thought developed over those centuries by a collective body of intellectuals.

Izzy

I went back and read your post again. I can see that this statement by you…

…can be interpreted in a variety of ways. If you meant “attributing the resulting religion solely to the Bible”, then I stand corrected. Is that what Captain Amazing was saying about Badchad’s view?

At any rate, the alternative is not necessarily concocting it yourself. The Christian epistemology is revelatory; that is, a Christian’s understanding is supposed to come from the Holy Spirit. Thus, another alternative is a religion concocted by the Holy Spirit.

RexDart & Libertarian,

You are making a similar point - that a religion not based solely on the Bible does not have to be concocted by yourself - it could be the result from the input of others’ understanding (RD) or the Holy Spirit (Lib). That is fine. So if you want to say that the Bible contains all sorts of stuff that you think are misguided but you value it for the parts that you do agree with you can stop right there.

But the sense that I get is that people wish to claim that the “correct” interpretation of the Bible is one that is in accordance with their views - that the Bible as a whole is giving the message that they are giving. And that to do this, they take the parts that agree with them literally and the parts that don’t agree with them non-literally, and present the “real” message as being identical to their own. But unless there can be made a case that the Bible contains indicators that these are to be taken literally and these not, they are essentially rewriting the Bible in their own image (or that of other intellectuals or the Holy Spirit etc.).

This was the point that badchad made about the Illiad. And the point of the various cites of other passages about Hell and prayer etc. Unless you can have a coherent standard for what to accept and what to reject, the Bible says nothing more than what is in accordance with your preferred theology.

It seems reasonable to me that different people can take different interpretations from scripture — especially since it is a translation into English from a language, culture, and zeitgeist that is vastly different from our own. Even among Bible worshippers, there is often disagreement about what this or that means. Reading the Bible critically and cherry picking it is no different, in my opinion, from how any book ought to be read.

I would say the former yes, the latter no. The difference is if there is internal evidence that your reading is correct or you merely happen to prefer it.

Of course, you can do what you want with any work of literature. You can take the Unabomber’s manifesto and decide that although you disagree with it as manifesto, you will set it to music and perform it as an opera. And if that works for you, great. But that does not mean that the manifesto is an opera.

So, as I mentioned before, you can claim that the Bible works for you by taking the parts you like and ignoring the rest (ISTR Diogenes taking this position in the GD thread). But that is not to say that this is the “correct” interpretation of the Bible.

I don’t necessarily take the parts I “like”. I take the parts that do not contradict the teachings of the Holy Spirit. A moral journey is a personal thing, in my opinion. God saves individuals, not groups, and so it makes sense to me that there might be individual interpretations of scripture.

Appeal to inspiration by the Holy Spirit, of course, does raise the uncomfortable question of who validates that inspiration – no problem among a group who believe alike, but the Holy Spirit has been loath to convince Diogenes or Gaudere of the accuracy of my beliefs, up to this point in time at least. :wink:

However, Izzy, perhaps an appeal to our legal system will clarify how I see things. Administrative regulations must conform to the language of the statute authorizing them; no bureaucrat can decide that, e.g., the sale of tetraethyllead-containing gasoline is a bad thing environmentally and prohibit it by promulgating a regulation; he must first convince Congress or a state legislature that it has strong negative environmental impacts and get them to pass a statute prohibiting sale of such gasoline – then he can write his regulation. And Congress and the legislatures are bound by the terms of the Constitution, and cannot pass laws that contravene what it says. Nor can a court enforce a validly-passed statute in a way that violates the constitution – e.g., if it’s illegal to go over 45 MPH on this stretch of highway and people of all kinds regularly exceed that limit, but only black men are stopped and given tickets, then while the speed limit is perfectly legal, its enforcement is violating the Equal Protection clause – the police must either enforce it equally against motorists of all races and both sexes, or cease to enforce it at all.

Likewise, and taking the Christian Bible rather than the Tanakh as my basis, I’m given a list of 631 commandments in the Torah and numerous exhortations amounting to commandments in the Prophets. Paul’s letters are full of instructions so phrased as to amount to commandments. And there may very well arise a situation in which two or more of these commandments contradict each other. How, then, will I comply with the law? I have a few guidelines – Paul also says that we are free of the Law, saved by grace to live lives pleasing to God as guided by the Holy Spirit. But most emphatically, Jesus gave a specific on what behavior God expects in identifying two of those 631 commandments and setting them above the others, and in His parables giving examples of how one carries out the will of God in holding those two as “God’s constitutional standards,” so to speak. This is without going outside the bounds of the Bible itself – the intrinsic standard, as it were.

When I do go outside the bounds of the Bible, I find that the book itself can be critiqued by the standards of textual criticism applied to every sort of ancient manuscript. While some such critics may bring unpalatable assumptions to the table (e.g., the idea that predictive prophecy is not possible, so alleged predictions of future events must have been back-written), I may still use the paleographical, linguistic, and cultural-anthropology information I can accrue in an effort to understand better what the Bible says. The bit about Sarah being Abraham’s sister, for example, is explained by a custom recorded in the laws of, IIRC, Ebla, where the bride of the heir is formally adopted into the family of the heir, meaning that her birth family is not entitled to a claim to the family possessions because she is now a part of the new family – but also meaning that she marries the man who has just become her adoptive brother. This may or may not have anything to do with the business about Terah being Sarai’s father or with the two stories where Abraham passes her off as his sister to two kings in whose territory he is traveling, but it may very well be an illumination of that story that clarifies what’s happening in them – Abraham is not lying per se but taking refuge in a legal technicality, so to speak.

In addition, I have the appeal to tradition – what have the vast majority of orthodox Christians over twenty centuries understood to be the truth? – the appeal to reason – how does this Biblical statement accord to the truth about the world available from empirical investigation? – and the appeal to authority – what do(es) the person(s) whom I and my co-religionists have selected to be our leader(s) and teacher(s) have to say about this Biblical statement?

I am also guided by my ability to recognize literary genre. Jonah, Job, and Esther, for example, bear every evidence of being literary works – stories told to convey a particular ethical or metaphysical point or points, and in the last case to provide a background for the celebration of Purim. The third chapter of Habakkuk speaks to anyone with an ounce of emotional resonance in them of a man who, beset by personal disaster and desperation, takes refuge in the might of the Lord. Psalm 130 speaks to anyone who has ever felt despair. I need not accept at face value the imagery of the avenging warrior in Habakkuk or obtain a precise scientific measure of how much the watchman relies on the coming of the dawn in the psalm in order to find truth in the words of those two passages.

Why should the Holy Spirit give all people identical interpretations? Does God give all people identical personalities? Or identical moral status (the first last, the last first)? Or identical temperaments? Why can’t there be some interpretation of X that is meaningful to me, but not to you, and vice-versa?

I say that the Holy Spirit validates its own inspiration. We’re not even supposed to judge the moral value of one another, let alone the Holy Spirit. There is no need for us to police one another’s moral journeys.

OK, but here’s where we’re outside my area of expertise. If indeed there are commandments that contradict each other, and if indeed there are some that are clearly elevated above all others, I would agree that it would be valid to rely on those more, or to reinterpret the others to a degree. I couldn’t say.

Of course. But you would also have to apply these in an “evenhanded” manner, and not just apply these to the parts that you would prefer to “explain away”.

Also valid. And again, something I don’t know anything about. I imagine opinions could possibly differ in this regard.

See that’s why I would prefer to see you debate this with someone else. :slight_smile:

(BTW, it’s 613)

Libertarian, correct me if I’m wrong but would it be fair to say that you put less emphasis on the Bible than do other Christians, even liberal ones? It would seem to me that your answer to badchad on the Illiad challenge would essentially be that yes, for such a person the Illiad is indeed his equivalent of the Bible, and no less valid.

I think that’s fair to say, yes.

I think it’s easy to read Homer in the same vein as I read OT stories. If you adopt the approach that the gods of Greek mythology, especially as presented by Homer, symbolize different aspects of the human mind (or soul, if you’d rather) as well as nature, then the stories make a lot of psychological sense. Odysseus battles the irrational rage of the sea (Poseidon) but is always guided by wisdom (who is personified as Athena). The Odyssey spends a lot of tomes exploring just what wisdom is, and each tome that the hero is rescued or guided by Athena is a lesson in what’s important to the attainment of happiness. If Odysseus is often blocked and thwarted by his own most base human impulses-- lust, rage, vanity, etc. If he can just get out of his own way, he will find his way back to the inner peace of his home and family. The single strongest emotion which drives Odysseus is his love for his wife and son, and that is the element which conquers his weaknesses.

I don’t think anyone tries to argue anymore for Homeric inerrancy (if they ever did at all) as to the historical events of the Trojan war or his geographical accuracy about the islands of the Aegean sea… It simply doesn’t matter. That wasn’t Homer’s point.

It’s the same (imho) with the Bible. To read is as literal history is absurd, but to read for its own unique insights, inspiration, wisdom and poetry is not.