# You know what? It's really not that fucking expensive to run a message board. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 24, 2005, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184 "2005-09-24T05:44:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/61 "2005-09-24T16:36:07Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I don’t mind the Google ads at all; I just wish they were better targeted. How many people here are looking to buy mailing lists? Some mod said somewhere (could I get more vague) that it was going to take time for the ads to tailor themselves to the site. Once that happens, the “mess with the google ads” thread is going to get very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/62 "2005-09-24T16:38:03Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > How about Ed gives us a breakdown of the costs and lets us see just where our money is going? Such things have been asked for repeatedly. Silence is the guaranteed response. The admin folk are always happy to patronisingly tell us that _of course_ this place costs a lot of money, and _don’t we know how lucky we are to have such a brilliant place for such a small fee_, and _of course_ the server is overworked…but they never tell us where the money was spent (or even if it went into anything other than the Reader’s main income budget), nor what the specs of this ultra-expensive server are. ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/63 "2005-09-24T16:42:29Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > **Ed** , you may have gotten the board into a vicious circle. You’ve already lost at least one subscription because of the ads. If fewer people renew, for whatever reason, will we start seeing more ads? On a month to month basis, subscriptions are about 50% ahead of last year, so we’re not too worried. Every time there’s a controversy some people threaten to stomp off in a huff, and a few actually do, but we’ve never noticed an overall decline in traffic. If one were to occur over something as trivial as this we’d be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/64 "2005-09-24T16:44:06Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Such things have been asked for repeatedly. Silence is the guaranteed response. The admin folk are always happy to patronisingly tell us that _of course_ this place costs a lot of money, and _don’t we know how lucky we are to have such a brilliant place for such a small fee_, and _of course_ the server is overworked…but they never tell us where the money was spent (or even if it went into anything other than the Reader’s main income budget), nor what the specs of this ultra-expensive server are. I bet it’s spent on backrubs for the mods, ivory backscratchers, and rocket cars for the staff of the Chicago Reader. Some probably goes to pay for Cecils lovely mansion in Marthas Vineyard. Lord knows that Eds vices are a drain on the budget. You’d be surprised how much he can spend on hookers and blow in a year. I bet some of it is even being spent to rebuild Trent Lotts house so the president can sit on his front porch. ---
**Author:** ![PanicZone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2bfe46/32.png) [@PanicZone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PanicZone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/65 "2005-09-24T16:44:34Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Such things have been asked for repeatedly. Silence is the guaranteed response. The admin folk are always happy to patronisingly tell us that _of course_ this place costs a lot of money, and _don’t we know how lucky we are to have such a brilliant place for such a small fee_, and _of course_ the server is overworked…but they never tell us where the money was spent (or even if it went into anything other than the Reader’s main income budget), nor what the specs of this ultra-expensive server are. No shit. I’ve lurked here forever, and the specifics have never come. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/66 "2005-09-24T16:44:36Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I don’t mind the Google ads at all; I just wish they were better targeted. How many people here are looking to buy mailing lists? I dislike the ads We paid for an adfree board. Now, it has ads. Magazines, etc have ads but that fact is clear before purchase. A basic analysis shows it to be a bad move. Most Dopers either have adblocking software, or simply do not click on ads. Little clicking=little revenue. So, the ads have gotten paying members upset in return for a trickle of cash. Why in the name of Cecil weren’t ads tried before the SDMB went to subscription? > [@](#): > > There had been threads around here since late 2000, IIRC, discussing the question of how this board could make money for the Chicago Reader, rather than siphon cash away from them. Numerous ideas were proposed (aside from paid memberships), of which maybe four or five had real merit, and even Zotti admitted that some of them would be profitable. > > My disappointment has been that (a) they didn’t try any of those ideas before going with pay-to-post, and (b) that they didn’t try a pay-to-post model that would allow people to try out this place for a bit more than a month before paying up or going away. Due to your posts in those threads, I’ve been waiting for you to show up. Clearly you’re an MBA, CPA, Ferengi or something. Post a piechart and some graphs vindicating our outrage. We have **Catsix** and others fighting on the tech front. With a blackberry in one hand and a double entry ledger in the other, we shall have this day. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/67 "2005-09-24T16:45:57Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Those images only have to be downloaded once per user. The vast majority of page views will be nothing but HTML. …and they’re compressing the pages with GZIP, so the actual size is quite a bit less even. I think it works out to be nearly a 5:1 compression at the level it’s using. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/68 "2005-09-24T16:55:58Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Why in the name of Cecil weren’t ads tried before the SDMB went to subscription? Two possible ideas: 1. They thought subscription fees would be less annoying than ads, so they went with the least objectionable revenue-stream first; or 2. They thought subscription fees would bring in a lot more money than ads, so they went with the biggest revenue-stream first. Either seems possible to me. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/69 "2005-09-24T17:05:28Z")
There were indeed banner ads tried once or twice, but that didn’t work out for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/70 "2005-09-24T17:10:17Z")
It is amazing to me that some people who I am fairly comfortable would complain generally about greedy corporations, money hungry managers, etc., always seem to picture the for-profit companies that give them services as some sort of cuddly, just breaking even entity. They then give those cuddly companies passes on behavior that they would light-up if they saw it elsewhere. I see this all the time with computer games, where these lugnuts actually offer to pay higher prices for the games to, “support the industry.” It’s just wierd. You do not know what the people who own and manage these companies are taking home in a year. Interestingly enough, all you ever get are snide, “Oh yeah, we’re just making a killing here,” type references. Without ever disclosing the numbers. At least the big, evil public companies are required by SEC rules to disclose management salaries and benefits, and earnings for the company as a whole. Note that I am not saying that the Chicago Reader makes a mint off of these boards, just commenting on a more general tendency from certain types of people that I’ve never understood from certain types of people. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/71 "2005-09-24T17:10:50Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Two possible ideas: > > 1. They thought subscription fees would be less annoying than ads, so they went with the least objectionable revenue-stream first; or > 2. They thought subscription fees would bring in a lot more money than ads, so they went with the biggest revenue-stream first. > > Either seems possible to me. > > Daniel or, the market wasn’t mature enough to sell fairly unobtrusive ads. Google has done a lot to change how ads are marketed. Personally, I don’t care how much money the Reader makes. I care to some extent that they don’t lose money, because that means this place disappears - but if they make $100 a year off this place or a million, its the same to me. To me what is important is that I get $15 worth of entertainment, amusement and information from this place in a year. If I advertising cuts into that amusement so its value drops below $15, I’ll drop my membership. So far this hasn’t happened. But I don’t see someone else’s profit as offensive, as long as I get the value expected out of the money I give them in the exchange. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/72 "2005-09-24T17:13:06Z")
I don’t think I am too upset, so long as we don’t get sent into some sort of pop-up hell, and so long as the ads don’t hover over whatever we are trying to read. On the other hand, the other thread mentioned in one breath - photography equipment, calimari and personal lubricant. Is this some sort of live action tentacles thing? :eek: ROFL ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/73 "2005-09-24T17:14:16Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > To me what is important is that I get $15 worth of entertainment, amusement and information from this place in a year. If I advertising cuts into that amusement so its value drops below $15, I’ll drop my membership. So far this hasn’t happened. Precisely the same for me. **Slyfrog** , have you tried asking certain types of people about certain types of tendencies, and then listening carefully to their responses, not to rebut them, but to understand their certain tendencies? I certainly may be one of those people of those certain types. For me, I bitch about the greed of corporations, but never when I see the corporation as selling a luxury item. If computer game companies want to start charging a thousand bucks per game, I won’t say a single word against them. I might express mild personal dismay that I can no longer afford this particular luxury, but that’s it. If all the grocery stores in my community stop selling fresh vegetables because they’re no longer profitable, you might hear me bitch then. That’s because I don’t see fresh produce as a luxury. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/74 "2005-09-24T17:15:57Z")
Some of you who think running a board is cheap really don’t understand the difference between doing something as a hobby, and doing it as a business. Sure, any fanboy can scrape together an old computer (or even buy a nice spiffy one), stick it in a corner of his basement, buy some BBS software, and be up and running for a hundred bucks a month in bandwidth. It’s a hobby, he’s paying for it, and it seems really cheap. Now try doing the same thing as a business, where every single incidental cost has to be considered. The fanboy might get by without a UPS or a backup system. A business can’t. A business pays business rates for bandwidth. A business has to hire sysadmins. A business has to answer queries and deal with issues with salaried employees. A business may have to have their lawyers look over the legal agreements, disclaimers, etc. A business has to cost out the space the equipment takes up. All you guys complaining about how this board is run like a business might stop to consider that maybe the reason the SDMB is so popular is \*because it is run like a business. I’ve been on some ‘amateur’ boards that have a pretty good population, and they tend to crash and burn because either the guy who runs it loses interest and allows the bad users to run amok, or it shuts down when the guy gets tired or running it, or it implodes under the weight of bad decisions and lack of oversight. The way I see it, I use the SDMB for an hour or two a day. Maybe 500 hours a year, maybe even 1000 hours. For that I pay $7.48. That amount is so small I don’t even waste my time thinking about it. Certainly it’s the cheapest commercial entertainment I can think of, and I think it’s petty to whine about the price of something that costs so little. If I wind up ever leaving this place, it won’t be because of the cost of a subscription. As for the ads, I have no idea if they are a good idea or not. I suspect not, simply because I would think the click-through rate on them would be abysmal on a board like this. The biggest problem isn’t the ads, but the type of business they are promoting. Mailing lists? Direct Marketing services? Retail inteligence? Bad market. Now, if they put some ads up there for Buffy merchandise or comic books, they might get some click-throughs… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/75 "2005-09-24T17:19:36Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > As for the ads, I have no idea if they are a good idea or not. I suspect not, simply because I would think the click-through rate on them would be abysmal on a board like this. The biggest problem isn’t the ads, but the type of business they are promoting. Mailing lists? Direct Marketing services? Retail inteligence? Bad market. Now, if they put some ads up there for Buffy merchandise or comic books, they might get some click-throughs… The admins have said that these are placeholder ads until Google’s freaky arachnid AIs read all of our posts and decide what to sell us. This spidery hivemind will finish processing all of our thoughts within a few days; until then, they’re just feeding us ads with the word “Intelligence” in them to massage our egos. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/76 "2005-09-24T17:24:47Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Now try doing the same thing as a business, where every single incidental cost has to be considered. The fanboy might get by without a UPS or a backup system. A business can’t. A business pays business rates for bandwidth. A business has to hire sysadmins. A business has to answer queries and deal with issues with salaried employees. A business may have to have their lawyers look over the legal agreements, disclaimers, etc. A business has to cost out the space the equipment takes up. Firstly, this is why some of us have long been asking for a breakdown of costs. Until we see _where_ the money is going, we won’t believe it’s all being used to fund the costs of the board, but is a nice (albeit small) little contribution to the Reader’s coffers. Secondly, you make it sound like this board is some standalone business. It’s not. It’s a side-project of a newspaper company. This means that apart from significant bandwith, the SDMB only generates a small addition to sysadmin costs, a small addition to legal matters, etc. These costs either have been calculated, so the figures are available should they ever deem us fit to know where the money goes, or they haven’t been costed, in which case it’s appalling that the mods continually defend the Reader’s claim that we are so expensive. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/77 "2005-09-24T17:25:00Z")
I try and try to get upset but when the cost of subscription is about the same as the cost of a Sam Adams beer in the lobby of the Algonquin hotel I can’t work up the steam. What pisses me off is that the new stuff seems to be orienting my screen to the right and I have to use that little sideways scroll-thingee to justify the view to the left side, whatever that means. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/78 "2005-09-24T17:26:45Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > The admins have said that these are placeholder ads until Google’s freaky arachnid AIs read all of our posts and decide what to sell us. This spidery hivemind will finish processing all of our thoughts within a few days; until then, they’re just feeding us ads with the word “Intelligence” in them to massage our egos. > > Daniel Perhaps we need a HUAC investigation of these ads. Who knows what they’ll be doing to the purity and essance of our natural bodily fluids. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/79 "2005-09-24T17:35:55Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Firstly, this is why some of us have long been asking for a breakdown of costs. Until we see _where_ the money is going, we won’t believe it’s all being used to fund the costs of the board, but is a nice (albeit small) little contribution to the Reader’s coffers. > > Secondly, you make it sound like this board is some standalone business. It’s not. It’s a side-project of a newspaper company. This means that apart from significant bandwith, the SDMB only generates a small addition to sysadmin costs, a small addition to legal matters, etc. These costs either have been calculated, so the figures are available should they ever deem us fit to know where the money goes, or they haven’t been costed, in which case it’s appalling that the mods continually defend the Reader’s claim that we are so expensive. Your attitude simply baffles me. Do you demand to see Wal-Mart’s books before you decide whether or not you are paying the ‘right’ price for a DVD? You’re acting like the Reader has some obligation to set a ‘fair’ price based on their costs. That’s not the way it works. The Reader is trying to set a ‘fair’ price by determining what people are willing to pay. Businesses are not charities. It’s their JOB to price their products at whatever the market will bear. Now, in the case of a message board, pricing decisions are complex because the value of the board changes with population size, putting all kinds of second-order interactions on price changes. For example, if you can charge double the price for a product and keep more than half your customers, then charging double may be a good thing to do. But on a message board, if you lose half your customers the value of the product itself declines. Trying to find the ‘correct’ price is very difficult, so the Reader is being cautious and taking a slow, methodical approach to it. More power to them. So what if it turns out that the ‘right’ price is high enough that the Reader makes so much money that they are farting through silk soon? Competition will happen. If the reader can show that running a message board is the path to riches, there will soon be dozens of them all competing for our affection. Then we’ll see how much value the SDMB brand has. Maybe it has enough that the Reader can profit from it. If that’s true, it’s only because they have created something we all like a lot. Again, more power to them. If not, and someone else can attract us all away with a faster message board and lower prices, then the Reader will have to adapt. That’s the way the market works. And what happens if the ‘market price’ is so low that the Reader can’t make enough profit? Then the board goes away, and we all have to find somewhere else to play. That’s just the way it is. None of these decisions require allowing **GorillaMan** to open the Reader’s books to determine if he’s paying the ‘right’ price. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/80 "2005-09-24T17:40:11Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > ,… until Google’s freaky arachnid AIs read all of our posts and decide what to sell us. > Daniel So we’re gonna get ads based on: 1920’s death rays, pan-fried sperm, co-worker’s toilet habits, ask the guy who used to go to prostitutes, --in addition to differential calculus, Supreme Court nominations, and religious philosophy. Lets’ see how Google’s AI programs handle that… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184.md?page=5)