# You know what? It's really not that fucking expensive to run a message board. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 24, 2005, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184 "2005-09-24T05:44:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/101 "2005-09-24T18:49:25Z")
> [@](#): > > **Left Hand of Dorkness** said: > Show us, please, where they said that it takes more than $41,000 a year to run a messageboard. Someone’s being disingenuous here, but it ain’t the mods. Are you a fucking idiot? That’s what they take in from the forums membership. They have specifically said that the subscription fees are getting it close to break-even, therefore what they’re saying is that $41,000 a year isn’t enough to run the forums. Comprehension, dumbass. > [@](#): > > The question is, where have they said that this isn’t enough to run a messageboard? When they started fucking saying they have to have ads because the subscriptions aren’t enough, jackass. Are you naturally stupid or do you work at it? > [@](#): > > **Ed Zotti** said: > It’s less of a money pit than it used to be. We make enough on subscriptions to cover the cost of the server and some but not all of the staff costs (me and Jerry). We’re hoping the Google ad revenue will make up the remainder of the deficit. Right there, you fucking moron, is where **Ed Zotti** says that the subscriptions $41,000 a year aren’t enough to pay for the forums. Although I would really like to know just why Jerry and Ed are both being paid solely out of forum subscriptions since it seems to me their main duties have fuck-all to do with the forums and everything to do with the Reader. Are they really trying to tell us the Reader wouldn’t have either Ed or Jerry if there were no forums? I fucking doubt that seriously. > [@](#): > > **Giraffe** said: > My point is that X is in fact, immaterial. Well, not to everyone it isn’t. If they’re crying hurt for cash and can’t afford to run the forum when really they’re stuffing it by the fistful into their pockets, then they’re outright lying to the customers. That’s not a good way to build a business. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/102 "2005-09-24T18:50:54Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6616745&postcount=50](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6616745&postcount=50) Hmm, fair enough–they are saying that it runs in the red now. I still have no reason to disbelieve them; certainly **catsix** isn’t laying out the world’s most convincing case. > [@DocCathode](#): > > The SDMB did NOT have Google ads when we paid for membership. The ads showed up only after we had paid. Yeah, but [they were discussing adding ads prior to the subscription renewal drive](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5917767&postcount=6). So it’s not like this is some bait-and-switch. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/103 "2005-09-24T18:57:11Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Well, not to everyone it isn’t. If they’re crying hurt for cash and can’t afford to run the forum when really they’re stuffing it by the fistful into their pockets, then they’re outright lying to the customers. That’s not a good way to build a business. It’s immaterial to everyone you’re screeching at. The staff here has no authority over the Reader’s business decisions or the ability to open up their books for your approval. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/104 "2005-09-24T19:01:45Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Well, not to everyone it isn’t. If they’re crying hurt for cash and can’t afford to run the forum when really they’re stuffing it by the fistful into their pockets, then they’re outright lying to the customers. That’s not a good way to build a business. On a practical level just how much accountability should I _reasonably_ be able to demand for 3-5 cents a day in subscription fees? If it was $ 20 a month your point might have a bit more weight, but as it is, it’s practically free. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/105 "2005-09-24T19:03:42Z")
> [@astro](#): > > On a practical level just how much accountability should I _reasonably_ be able to demand for 3-5 cents a day in subscription fees? If it was $ 20 a month your point might have a bit more weight, but as it is, it’s practically free. I disagree. The accountability begins and ends with my decision to resubscribe. If they decide they want to turn this site into one gigantic ad for penis-enlarging pills, then I’ll make them accountable by not renewing my subscription. I won’t throw a hissy fit about it. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/106 "2005-09-24T19:05:46Z")
Well, considering the amount of money that subscriptions brought in this year, and the fact that it’s around double the cost of servers and bandwidth for a site with this amount and type of traffic, I do think that I’m being lied to about the need for more money. I also find it incredibly arrogant that the lies are so bald-faced, as if nobody here with a background in IT would figure out that the administration is full of shit when it claims that $41K a year to run nothing more than a web forum isn’t enough. I did not just fall off a turnip truck, and I am not going to buy this steaming load of shit that’s being shoveled at me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/107 "2005-09-24T19:06:49Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I do think that I’m being lied to about the need for more money. I’m sure you do, but you’re kind of insane, so that’s not much of a surprise. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/108 "2005-09-24T19:12:46Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I am not going to buy this steaming load of shit that’s being shoveled at me. …it is scratched. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/109 "2005-09-24T19:13:02Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I’m sure you do, but you’re kind of insane, so that’s not much of a surprise. > > Daniel You have found an error in her calculation of the gross profit from subscriptions? You have found an error in her calculations of the costs of servers, connections, etc? Or are you simply making a personal attack not based on anything she’s posted to this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/110 "2005-09-24T19:19:05Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > You have found an error in her calculation of the gross profit from subscriptions? > > You have found an error in her calculations of the costs of servers, connections, etc? > > Or are you simply making a personal attack not based on anything she’s posted to this thread? None of the above, **Doc**. I’m saying that, when she perceives a discrepancy, she concludes she’s being lied to, rather than assuming that she doesn’t have all the information. I’m saying that she’s also kind of insane, so it wouldn’t surprise me that she makes such a conclusion. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/111 "2005-09-24T19:21:10Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Well, considering the amount of money that subscriptions brought in this year, and the fact that it’s around double the cost of servers and bandwidth for a site with this amount and type of traffic, I do think that I’m being lied to about the need for more money. > > I also find it incredibly arrogant that the lies are so bald-faced, as if nobody here with a background in IT would figure out that the administration is full of shit when it claims that $41K a year to run nothing more than a web forum isn’t enough. I did not just fall off a turnip truck, and I am not going to buy this steaming load of shit that’s being shoveled at me. I think the general point is that even if it is making netting a few thousand, that’s close enough to piddle for a large organization that’s it’s not worth the necessary hassle factor or paying attention to it or supporting it. There are costs associated with paying attention to the SDMB beyond the hardware and direct labor costs. The cost may even be a metaphorical one of “is it worth the attention”, but it’s still a real cost from the Chicago Reader’s perspective. If the amount of net annual revenue the SDMB generates is less than one ad page in the Reader why even keep it in inventory? I think that’s the bottom line question for the Reader. ---
**Author:** ![Phedre\_no\_Delaunay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/839c29/32.png) [@Phedre\_no\_Delaunay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phedre_no_Delaunay)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/112 "2005-09-24T19:26:04Z")
> [@Ed Zotti](#): > > We make enough on subscriptions to cover the cost of the server and some but not all of the staff costs (me and Jerry). But Mr. Zotti, I recall seeing your name associated with The Straight Dope and The Chicago Reader way back in 1981 when I purchased my first Straight Dope book. Are you saying that you would have long since been fired if this board weren’t here? The Chicago Reader wouldn’t have an IT guy if it weren’t for this message board? > [@Giraffe](#): > > The strongly negative reaction of members to the ads has been noticed and options are being discussed. Your voices are being heard. I sincerely hope they consider the two-tier system I mentioned earlier. Free but with ads, pay and be ad-free. I think we’d get a lot more new blood, which the SDMB sorely needs anyway, and those of us who like to be ad-free can pay to stay that way. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/113 "2005-09-24T19:31:35Z")
What it looks like to me is that the Chicago Reader is a penny ante organization that is essentially squatting on the Straight Dope/Cecil Adams brand, but they simply don’t have the werewithal to effectively maintain that brand, so they resort to penny ante tactics. The Straight Dope is much, much better than the Chicago Reader will ever be, but the Reader will just keep holding on, doing their piddly crap. It’s a shame, but that’s what we’re stuck with as long as they’re squatting on the brand. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/114 "2005-09-24T19:35:29Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I never said it was cheap. I did say there’s no way I’ll ever believe it costs more than $41,000 a year. And you say this because of your extensive experience in running such systems in a corporate environment? Or are you just bleeming GUESSING? I don’t know how much the SDMB costs to run, because I don’t have enough info. I don’t know how much hardware the software needs to support the load this system has - do you? I don’t know what hardware this is running on - do you? I don’t know how extensive the backup plan, disaster recovery plan, maintenance plan, and other plans are - do you? But let me tell you something - $41,000 per year is CHUMP CHANGE in corporate IT. For all you know, this board could be running on a server class machine with a RAID 5 array, high-quality backup systems, UPS, etc. It could be in a server room with a 10-ton air conditioner. Perhaps the SDMB hardware is actually a cluster of machines - redundant backup and failover, separate machine for the database, etc. I have no idea. But you seem to be absolutely certain of your facts, so let’s hear it. What environment is this board running in? What are the hardware costs? How much does it cost to maintain a rotating daily backup with offsite storage for this board? How much handholding does a system like this need when running a board this large? Is an IT guy having to do daily maintenance? To give you some clue as to what this might cost, consider that it would not be unusual at all for the hardware this thing runs on to cost at least $20,000. Server machines are not cheap, nor are RAID systems and substantial UPS’s. If it’s running a separate Database server, feel free to double it. Then there’s the ongoing cost of backup media, bandwidth, power… Computers are generally depreciated 100% over three years. That means a $20,000 machine is expensed out at about $7,000 per year. Let’s say bandwidth costs them $1000/mo. Now we’re already at $19,000 per year for one computer, with no labor. And if the IT guy’s time isn’t used that much when the board is running smoothly, that’s great. But how much time does he have to spend when the board goes down? Or when a major upgrade is planned? If he’s making $70,000 per year, the actual cost of him to the company is probably closer to $100,000. If he spends 10% of his time over the course of a year dealing with SDMB issues, there’s another $10K. On the other hand, maybe the IT maintenance on this board is done by a new hire earning $25,000. I have no idea - do you? Then there’s opportunity cost. No business sets all this stuff up for fun. They have to analyze not just how much they are making, but how much more they could make if they took the same resources and invested them elsewhere. Oh, and did you bother factoring in the cost of processing thousands of payments, and the cost of the accounting associated with the board? The percentage VISA gets out of the sale? Do you really have ANY idea of how this all works? Bottom line is that this board could maybe run for $10K a year, or maybe ten times that amount. I certainly have no idea - a large part of that depends how efficient the Reader’s IT systems are, and how high the quality is of the systems surrounding the board (how robust backups are, whether there is failover involved, yada yada). You must have some really good inside information if you are so certain of what you know. BTW, I ran a commercial message board for several years. It was a fraction of the size of this one, and it cost us close to that $40K mark. $700/mo for connectivity, $8,000 for comm hardware which had to be replaced every year or two, $10,000 for the computer, and an almost full-time employee dealing with issues like payment processing, complaints, requests, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/115 "2005-09-24T19:36:46Z")
> [@An Arky](#): > > What it looks like to me is that the Chicago Reader is a penny ante organization that is essentially squatting on the Straight Dope/Cecil Adams brand, but they simply don’t have the werewithal to effectively maintain that brand, so they resort to penny ante tactics. The Straight Dope is much, much better than the Chicago Reader will ever be, but the Reader will just keep holding on, doing their piddly crap. It’s a shame, but that’s what we’re stuck with as long as they’re squatting on the brand. “Squatting on the brand”? You mean the brand THEY CREATED? Jesus, some people… ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/116 "2005-09-24T19:40:33Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > None of the above, **Doc**. I’m saying that, when she perceives a discrepancy, she concludes she’s being lied to, rather than assuming that she doesn’t have all the information. Hmmm, the vast majority of what is posted on these boards about George W. Bush follows **exactly** this pattern. I haven’t seen you protesting in those threads. Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/117 "2005-09-24T19:42:01Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Hmmm, the vast majority of what is posted on these boards about George W. Bush follows **exactly** this pattern. I haven’t seen you protesting in those threads. Why not? Have you seen me replying in those threads? Are you sure that I even read them? I’m sure if you’ll ask around, people will say that I criticize stupid leftists more than just about any other leftist on this board. This is not a valid criticism. [s]Sam\*\*, I gotta say, it’s good being on the same side of an argument as you! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/118 "2005-09-24T19:43:23Z")
Sorry, I meant to finish my thoughts, but posted too soon. Anyway, a larger organization may consider the cost of running the SDMB negligible and would think there’s a benefit to have it under their umbrella. A larger organization might also be more prone to put even more advertising on it. When it comes down to it, there are definitely worse things than having a few Google text ads at the bottom of the page. I think it’s a slimy move, but I do know that ther are slimier moves made every day. Still, I think the the Chicago Reader (what is it anyway, a widdle free paper?) is simply inadequate to carry the SD brand. They’re a puny, struggling local paper. They just can’t cut the mustard. I feel sorry for them more than anything. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/119 "2005-09-24T19:45:09Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > “Squatting on the brand”? You mean the brand THEY CREATED? > > Jesus, some people… Some writer that happened to work for them created it, it exceeded their scope, and here we are. “THEY” did nothing much, really. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/120 "2005-09-24T19:58:33Z")
> [@An Arky](#): > > Sorry, I meant to finish my thoughts, but posted too soon. Anyway, a larger organization may consider the cost of running the SDMB negligible and would think there’s a benefit to have it under their umbrella. A larger organization might also be more prone to put even more advertising on it. > > When it comes down to it, there are definitely worse things than having a few Google text ads at the bottom of the page. I think it’s a slimy move, but I do know that ther are slimier moves made every day. > > Still, I think the the Chicago Reader (what is it anyway, a widdle free paper?) is simply inadequate to carry the SD brand. They’re a puny, struggling local paper. They just can’t cut the mustard. I feel sorry for them more than anything. ’ The [Chicago Reader](http://www.chicagoreader.com/) is one of the largest, most robust and most profitable metro style papers in the nation. If it weren’t for their indulgence the SDMB would not exist. > [@](#): > > The Reader is distributed at more than 1,400 locations; distribution begins on Thursday and is completed by Friday at 2 pm. Most copies are picked up by Readers on Thursday or Friday; few locations have any left by Monday morning. The number of copies returned as leftovers each week is approximately 3% of the pressrun. The average circulation of the Reader for the six months ending June 30, 2004 was 119,606. Circulation figures are audited by the Audit Bureau of Circulations (ABC). > > The Reader’s Guide to Arts & Entertainment is distributed on Thursdays at more than 500 locations. The average circulation for the six months ending June, 2004 was 21,073. Circulation figures are audited by ABC. > > 2.2 people read each copy of the paper. > > Demographics > > Median age: 40. > 74% are 18-49 years old. > Median household income is $57,000. > 34% make $75,000 or more. 21% make $100,000 or more. > 93% have some college education (national figure 51%). 71% graduated (national figure 24%). > 49% of employed respondents hold professional or managerial positions (national figure 32%). > 60% male, 40% female. > 70% are single. > 84% of readers live in households with no children > Advertising Effectiveness > > The Reader and The Reader’s Guide play an important part in their readers’ lives. In the most recent audience survey, 83% reported that they’d read or looked into at least three of the last four issues. 65% of readers bought products or services in the last 3 months because they saw them advertised in the Reader or The Reader’s Guide. They did so an average of 5 times in those 3 months. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184.md?page=7)