# You know what? It's really not that fucking expensive to run a message board. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 24, 2005, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184 "2005-09-24T05:44:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/141 "2005-09-24T22:27:20Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > With your attitude, arrogance and obvious contempt for the customers? If someone gave you a dime for this, they gave you too damn much. That’s a lot of fury over 3 cents a day. If he charged you a quarter I imagine you’d have to shave a Mohawk into your skull, get some pistols and go bat shit on his arrogant ass. ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/142 "2005-09-24T22:28:03Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > With your attitude, arrogance and obvious contempt for the customers? If someone gave you a dime for this, they gave you too damn much. Thanks for your input, ma’am. What are you like when you’re in a _bad_ mood? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/143 "2005-09-24T22:30:04Z")
> [@Ed Zotti](#): > > Thanks for your input, ma’am. What are you like when you’re in a _bad_ mood? Wonderful. Valid point are made, with the humour & passion we expect from a decent message board. And you don’t have the balls to respond properly. ---
**Author:** ![zeeny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zeeny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zeeny)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/144 "2005-09-24T22:35:12Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > The risk some of us are concerned with is the vicious circle of some people deciding to quit this place, making it less attractive to the remainder, so more quit… Well, I’m a seasoned refugee from other messageboards that didn’t weather a crisis or two, so I appreciate your concern. In a way, this “crisis” coming up just as I’ve found this place raises some immediate concerns for me as well (but yes, I understand that it holds little weight since I’m a “newbie” - or “guest” in this case). I like this messageboard. But should I sign up as a paying member under the current circumstances? Will it prove to be a rip-off? Will the quality of the current content be affected by this crisis? What _is_ the enticement for new members? When I read posts telling regulars “who cares if you leave” - what does that say to me, or other newcomers? To pay, only to be told to fuck off in future? That’s a hard sell. I can get that attitude for free. I’m curious to see what happens here. But then again - I don’t need to pay right away to find out. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/145 "2005-09-24T22:36:24Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Either the servers are often overloaded (as we are often told, and as we often experience), or it’s possible to measure traffic. You can’t do both. Why not? ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/146 "2005-09-24T22:36:48Z")
I do not understand the people who keep on harping about how it’s a for-profit business, and how the Reader is entitled to make as much money on it as they want. I do not think anyone disputes that, or that it is even the point being discussed here. I think what is irritating some people (rightly or wrongly) is the sense that said for-profit business has intimated or outright stated (ask the people who are irritated about it, I do not know which) that the board is not making much money (or is in the red), or that expenses are too high, or that something else is off with revenues over expenses. I think that removes it from the realm of, “They can charge whatever they want.” Much like this board’s purported purpose, if you saying something like, “We can not add those features, they cost too much and we do not make enough money,” then it is reasonable enough to challenge that statement. If the Reader does not want that statement challenged, it can simply say, “We do not think those features are worth the added expense to us,” or, “Those features would cut too heavily into our profits.” Basically, I think the people complaining are saying you can’t have your cake and eat it too. That was the point of my earlier post about the strange people defending this behavior here, who would light up many other companies who claimed they were not making much money for being a big evil corporation. You are right, we do not need to know what the Reader makes on this. But when numbers or statements are thrown out to garner sympathy or to look like the plucky little guy, I see nothing wrong with having them challenged. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/147 "2005-09-24T22:36:48Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Wonderful. Valid point are made, with the humour & passion we expect from a decent message board. And you don’t have the balls to respond properly. And that would be… ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/148 "2005-09-24T22:37:24Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > You’re missing the point in a quite spectacular way. This board was not set up to make the Reader a profit. Making money from internet subscriptions is not how the Reader makes its money. This place is a spin-off, which could be regarded as (a) a cash-cow, (b) something to tolerate as long as it is not a drain, or (c) advertising & PR. It’s not clear which it is supposed to be, due to the mixed messages and lack of clear information from the mods. And I never said there was an obligation for them to provide the information, but whenever I have suggested that it would be helpful to provide it to prevent some of the discontent we see, I’ve never even seen an explanation on why this is not possible. > > Again, this is the point. None of us know what we’re dealing with, because nobody who knows will provide fairly basic information when we ask for it. And your reply also demonstrates the smugness of the “this place is great” attitude which permeates through many of the replies these discussions attract. Just because a place is popular, doesn’t mean it’s as good as it good be, nor does it mean it will stay as popular. Right now the newspaper business is hard - damn hard. Even the free newspaper business - which exists functionally off ad dollars, has a hard time selling enoughs ads and keeping readers - because its the number of readers that convince people to spend their ad dollars at a newspaper and not on radio or TV or internet ads. After all, why should anyone continue to pick up a free local weekly? Ten years ago if I wanted to know what band was playing where, I picked up my local free weekly, filled with bar ads and ads for strip joints, and found a venue I was interested in. Nowadays, I hit the web from the comfort of my home. I pick up the free weekly when I have nothing better to read - which is not often anymore. I get my news from the web, my commentary, my entertainment. Their niche is drying up and they need to survive. If they need to survive by making a profit on this site, that is that. Because if the Reader goes, so goes this place. It is THEIR business, THEY get to decide what to use as a profit center and what they provide out of some sort of ethical responsibility to the community. This may not be such a great place that this move isn’t delaying the inevitable, and we will all start burdening the servers over at fathom or some like community. But despite the overwhelming sense of ownership so many of us appearently feel for this place, we don’t own it and they aren’t accountable to us. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/149 "2005-09-24T22:37:40Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Again, this is the point. None of us know what we’re dealing with, because nobody who knows will provide fairly basic information when we ask for it. And your reply also demonstrates the smugness of the “this place is great” attitude which permeates through many of the replies these discussions attract. Just because a place is popular, doesn’t mean it’s as good as it good be, nor does it mean it will stay as popular. No. I know precisely what I’m dealing with: a product that satisfies me for the price I’m paying. You seem to believe that you could make it better if you were in charge… but that confidence seems to vanish when faced with the prospect of actually doing it on you own. Instead, you want to tell the existing management how to run things, like a bus passenger trying to hop in the driver’s seat to show how efficiently YOU could plan the bus route. You can speculate all you like about how the product could be better. Talk is cheap. If it’s so inexpensive to create and run a quality message board, _where is GorillaManMessageBoard?_ ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/150 "2005-09-24T22:42:11Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Yeah, actually, I am. So you know something about IT, but you’re willing to categorically state that this board can cost nowhere near $40,000 per year to run? That’s simply ridiculous. > [@](#): > > Nope. That’d be the rest of **your** post, where you invent a bunch of fictitious high-end hardware and attempt to claim that’s what’s behind these forums. I put them out there to show the possible RANGE of costs, to refute your comment that there’s ‘no way’ it can cost this much. For all I know, the SDMB is being run on an old Pentium sitting in a closet and the IT guy maintains it for beers. On the other hand, if it’s a real first-class installation, it could easily cost two or three times your $40,000 ceiling to maintain. I mean, we have some servers that cost almost that much just to keep their software licenses up to date and pay for the service plans. So your categorical, “there is no way it costs that much” is simply ridiculous. Neither you nor I are in a position to guess how much the Reader pays to run this board. > [@](#): > > Kind of like how we tell people who complain that some part if their life is off limits here: then don’t fucking bring it up. They brought it up, publicly, and they started the cries of being underfunded. Now, since they offer no proof of those claims, and since I have a background in IT and have dealt with equipment and communications costs and budgets for tech upgrades, I’m telling them their claims smell like something that came out of a horse’s ass. Gee, and I have the same experience, and I don’t think it sounds unreasonable at all. Maybe you just work for a cheap-ass outfit? For example, if my company were running this board, this might be the hardware that we’d purchase: Board Hardware: IBM xSeries 366 server: $13,999 MySQL Host Server: IBM Blade Storage Server: $5,000 Backup: IBM DLT Drive: $1300 There. $20,000 right off the bat, before we’ve considered UPS, air conditioning, etc. And how about software? Luckily vBulletin isn’t expensive, and MySQL is free. But you also have to pay for your operating systems, your support contracts, software for your backups and other utilities, etc. > [@](#): > > Multiplying the number of subscribers at $14.95 (which you gave us) by $14.95, then multiplying the number of subscribers at $7.48 (which you also gave us) by $7.48 and adding the two results together is hardly ‘dart board’. It’s simple mathematics. Made somewhat less simple when you have to consider transaction costs. What does it cost to process a $7.48 transaction? I have no idea, because I don’t know how the Reader does it. And the funny thing is, neither do you. > [@](#): > > Although it is funny when you practically admit that this entire advertising thing is very directly about putting more money in **your** pocket, or at least assuring that the ‘not trivial’ sum going in there now keeps going in. Because we all know that, unlike you, Ed Zotti should work for free. > [@](#): > > Considering the complete lack of common courtesy you seem to show customers, why the hell should we be happy about making sure the SDMB money stays in your pocket? What was the common courtesy they were lacking again? Not being willing to open their private books to you so you can determine if they are charging the ‘right’ amount? Not being willing to work for free? > [@](#): > > With your attitude, arrogance and obvious contempt for the customers? If someone gave you a dime for this, they gave you too damn much. That’s it - piss off the people who have provided one of your primary modes of entertainment. Call them cheap, tell them they aren’t worth being paid, and help make their jobs a little worse. That’ll do wonders for helping to keep the SDMB alive. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/151 "2005-09-24T22:42:26Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Why not? OK, fair enough, it’s possible to make an estimate on demand based on the volume of requests that the server can’t cope with. But to flatly state that things are as good as they’ve ever been once again brings me back to my request for hard-and-fast figures of what the hell is going on with the server. In the local parlance, _CITE?_ **Zeeny** - welcome, and thank you for your comments. You identify a crucial point, which is where are the new subscribers coming from? The initial income came from the majority of regular posters who dug out their plastic numbers. Many of us are worried that there won’t be enough new people arriving to prevent stagnation. (You see, we’re not just worried about money, we’re worried about whether people enjoy themselves while they’re here.) ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/152 "2005-09-24T22:43:38Z")
> [@Ed Zotti](#): > > Thanks for your input, ma’am. What are you like when you’re in a _bad_ mood? Man, that’s just a page out of Dale Carnegie there. That’s EXACTLY how they teach you to deal with paying customers. Does anyone in the Reader offices have an outlook on customer service that doesn’t amount to “Users. What an annoyance for us to have to deal with,”? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/153 "2005-09-24T22:44:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You seem to believe that you could make it better if you were in charge. Yawn yawn yawn. Why can people not read the whole thread? I’ve already responded to such comments. ---
**Author:** ![zeeny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zeeny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zeeny)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/154 "2005-09-24T23:12:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. I know precisely what I’m dealing with: a product that satisfies me for the price I’m paying. That might work for you as a “regular”, who has already been “pre-sold” by the benefits of community and established friendships. But how does that answer the concerns of “newbies”? > [@Bricker](#): > > You seem to believe that you could make it better if you were in charge… but that confidence seems to vanish when faced with the prospect of actually doing it on you own. Instead, you want to tell the existing management how to run things, like a bus passenger trying to hop in the driver’s seat to show how efficiently YOU could plan the bus route. > > You can speculate all you like about how the product could be better. Talk is cheap. If it’s so inexpensive to create and run a quality message board, where is GorillaManMessageBoard? Come on. This is a stereotypical “free market predicts everything” argument. And I think that **GorillaMan** has already answered that question (if somewhat succinctly - perhaps escaping your notice?). Better you should answer my questions as a _potential paying customer_. If you think not, if you think that _potential paying customers_ don’t matter, then what does that say about the profit model of this website? If I were a “regular” here, I’d think I was being squeezed. That might be wrong - it might be a case of piss-poor marketing strategy. But I don’t see how it is justified to flame people who think that way. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/155 "2005-09-24T23:20:31Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > OK, fair enough, it’s possible to make an estimate on demand based on the volume of requests that the server can’t cope with. But to flatly state that things are as good as they’ve ever been once again brings me back to my request for hard-and-fast figures of what the hell is going on with the server. In the local parlance, _CITE?_ Yawn, yawn, yawn. Why can people not read the whole thread? Your request for a cite presumes the Reader bears some responsibility to justify their actions to you. As has been pointed out, they do not. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/156 "2005-09-24T23:28:38Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Your request for a cite presumes the Reader bears some responsibility to justify their actions to you. As has been pointed out, they do not. I’m asking for a response, _any_ response, from the mods or admin to the questions I’ve raised about these matters several times over the past months. Each time, there’s been no reply at all. Even if it were a succinct explanation on why they are unable to give the information I’d like to see, it would be something. At the moment, it seems aloof and arrogant, to tell us when we’ve misunderstood the situation regarding servers/subscriptions/whatever, but when we ask for clarification to not provide it. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/157 "2005-09-24T23:30:47Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Wonderful. Valid point are made, with the humour & passion we expect from a decent message board. And you don’t have the balls to respond properly. Oh piss off. I’m gonna bet that Ed Zotti knows a lot more about the finances of the reader and the message board than anyone else in this thread. What you and Catsix are so frantically engaging in is equal parts guessing and flailing. If this twists your britches so much, you can pack your balls and go play with your self. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/158 "2005-09-24T23:32:07Z")
I doubt the mods or the admins know. My employer - a publically held company - does not discuss the decisions they make regarding margins and profits with me. I manage projects, and even at that level, I don’t necessarily have perfect insight into costs. I suspect they are simply being told “see if you can’t raise revenue, we are hurting.” Why do you assume that the mods and admins are hiding something. The other possiblity is that they know, but its considered confidential information - as financial decision is often considered in a company - and therefore they can’t post it on a public message board. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/159 "2005-09-24T23:34:53Z")
> [@brianjedi](#): > > Man, that’s just a page out of Dale Carnegie there. That’s EXACTLY how they teach you to deal with paying customers. > > Does anyone in the Reader offices have an outlook on customer service that doesn’t amount to “Users. What an annoyance for us to have to deal with,”? Guess what. The customer isn’t always right. Catsix and others are telling Ed friggin Zotti what the boards finances are and demanding information that he really can’t give out. I think his response was better than was deserved. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184/160 "2005-09-24T23:38:29Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Even if it were a succinct explanation on why they are unable to give the information I’d like to see, it would be something. I don’t think they are unable, I think they are unwilling. And Ed has explained several times that the Reader is a private company, with no self interest in publishing details of their finances, including the costs of operation of this board, its profitability, or lack thereof. You may not like that answer, but you have no standing to demand more. > [@](#): > > At the moment, it seems aloof and arrogant… You say that like it’s a bad thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-what-its-really-not-that-fucking-expensive-to-run-a-message-board/323184.md?page=9)