# You know who else stopped religious fundamentalists attacking women? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 4, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337 "2012-01-04T03:35:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/21 "2012-01-04T08:55:15Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > You mentioned the “Zionism is racism” weirdos. > > The “Zionism is racism” weirdos oppose Zionism. > The Haredim oppose Zionism. > > But it does not follow that the Haredim think Zionism is racism. > All A are C. > All B are C. > Does not imply that all A are B or all B are A. > From what I understand, they oppose Zionism not because of any alledged racism but because of religious reasons. I saw the signs in the vid and thought they were mixing up the two for good measure. I was just expressing my further disgust…sort of like if you saw a Tea Partier saying something about, oh, I don’t know, the End of Days, and made a comment like, These are the same chumps that \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_? Can’t they just start their own island nation? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/22 "2012-01-04T09:32:10Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > You mentioned the “Zionism is racism” weirdos. > > The “Zionism is racism” weirdos oppose Zionism. > The Haredim oppose Zionism. > > But it does not follow that the Haredim think Zionism is racism. To them, anyone who criticizes them is an anti-semite. This also means that anyone who they don’t like is also an anti-semite. They don’t like Zionism. Therefore, Zionism is anti-semitic, or racist. It’s crazy-person logic. Welcome to my world. > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Alessan, > What could be done? > > Withing a few decades, won’t Israel have about equal parts Arabs, Haredim and non-Haredi Jews? That’ll be interesting. I honestly don’t know. Frankly, this scares me more than terrorism or Iran. I’m afraid that someday I’ll have to fight for my country. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/23 "2012-01-04T12:46:03Z")
When religious groups act like a bunch of cunts, it is right and proper to “oppress” them, same as any other groups or individuals. Instead, we’re supposed to give them special treatment because of their delusions - fuck that. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/24 "2012-01-04T13:53:01Z")
I’m confused. Wouldn’t an extremely devout Jewish sect be _for_ Zionism? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/25 "2012-01-04T14:07:51Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I’m confused. Wouldn’t an extremely devout Jewish sect be _for_ Zionism? And that’s why I never bring these subjects up on this board. What’s the point of pitting something if you’re going to have to spend three quarters of the thread explaining Israeli society to outsiders? Anyway, no, ultra-Orthodox Jews are not for Zionism. Ultra-Orthodox Jews were never for Zionism: they saw it from the start as a modern secular movement that went against Messianic tradition. The whole concept of religious Zionism - a camp to which these people most definitely do not belong - is a relatively new phenomenon, which didn’t become prominent until the 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/26 "2012-01-04T14:38:08Z")
I guess there’s not much hope for an 'Ask the ultra-orthodox Jewish person" thread, is there? I’m sure I’m missing some deep subtleties here, but press reports certainly make it seem like one of the things that sparked this whole kerfuffle is that some ultra-orthodox mook takes a look at an eight-year-old girl, says to himself, “Whoa, I’d hit that”, and decides his lack of internal control is somehow her fault. Assuming that more or less characterizes the situation, does anyone ever sit down with these guys and walk them through their illogic, or what? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/27 "2012-01-04T15:03:52Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I guess there’s not much hope for an 'Ask the ultra-orthodox Jewish person" thread, is there? I’m sure I’m missing some deep subtleties here, but press reports certainly make it seem like one of the things that sparked this whole kerfuffle is that some ultra-orthodox mook takes a look at an eight-year-old girl, says to himself, “Whoa, I’d hit that”, and decides his lack of internal control is somehow her fault. Assuming that more or less characterizes the situation, does anyone ever sit down with these guys and walk them through their illogic, or what? What would be the point? They live in another universe, for all intents and purposes. Their way is the right way 'cause G-d told them so. Israel is in a tough spot. It exists as a homeland for Jews, after it was kind of severely proved to them that no matter how well they assimilated into western societies, when time for a scapegoat came that didn’t matter. But this in turn carries with it an implication that they should accommodate ANYONE “Jewish enough”, and that they can’t raise the “assimilate or bugger off” argument with a straight face. But it also was established by mostly liberally educated, humanistically inclined, largely socialistic Jews, as a liberal democratic state and society. So it comes to a point when you have to decide: if the important thing is that you have your own FREE country where you are safe to be who you are, when do you get to the point that you have to say, sorry guys, the greater civil society trumps your religious society? Are you then betraying your foundational identity? Unenviable position. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/28 "2012-01-04T15:05:15Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Assuming that more or less characterizes the situation, does anyone ever sit down with these guys and walk them through their illogic, or what? Any adult male who spits on a little girl needs to be “walked through his illogic” with a crowbar. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/29 "2012-01-04T15:19:49Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I guess there’s not much hope for an 'Ask the ultra-orthodox Jewish person" thread, is there? I’m sure I’m missing some deep subtleties here, but press reports certainly make it seem like one of the things that sparked this whole kerfuffle is that some ultra-orthodox mook takes a look at an eight-year-old girl, says to himself, “Whoa, I’d hit that”, and decides his lack of internal control is somehow her fault. Assuming that more or less characterizes the situation, does anyone ever sit down with these guys and walk them through their illogic, or what? It’s not the they think they want to sleep with the 8 year old girl. It’s their rejection of secular (and perhaps American immigrant?) Jews in “their” territory. The concept of modesty is very strict with the Haredim. Surprised they aren’t at burqa stage yet. There’s a difference between _what is not allowed because it is expressly forbidden in the Torah_ and _what is not allowed because it is apparently implied or because a rabbi said so_. The Haredim lean towards the latter. The Torah doesn’t say, for example, that a female can’t give a eulogy at a funeral. It just wasn’t really done. But when Orthodox women want to say the kaddish, it becomes a big deal all of the sudden so the right go even righter to alienate themselves from everyone else. It’s the same way with conversion. The “traditional Jewish” position on conversion is really just a modern invention of the Orthodox as a reaction to Jews who were more secular. It’s my understanding that Israel is the kind of place where everyone gets to find their own niche. Or neighorhood. Ask Alessan if Jews v. Jews has happened like this in a long time. I know there was a lot of religious conflict in the beginning, but not like _this._ Since this little girl (lord do I feel sorry for her) has a secular mom and doesn’t dress head to toe and go to an Orthodox yeshiva, apparently she’s on her way to whoredom. :rolleyes: These assholes are a greater threat to Israel than any external one. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/30 "2012-01-04T16:02:57Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Since this little girl (lord do I feel sorry for her) **has a secular mom and doesn’t dress head to toe and go to an Orthodox yeshiva** , apparently she’s on her way to whoredom. :rolleyes: These assholes are a greater threat to Israel than any external one. (bolded part): I don’t think that’s true. The daughter and mom are Modern Orthodox and she goes to a religious school. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/31 "2012-01-04T18:08:12Z")
It’s that “modern” part they have a problem with. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/32 "2012-01-04T18:17:09Z")
Right, but it’s not religious vs. secular. It’s really, really religious vs. really religious but slightly less so. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/33 "2012-01-04T18:44:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > When religious groups act like a bunch of cunts, it is right and proper to “oppress” them, same as any other groups or individuals. Instead, we’re supposed to give them special treatment because of their delusions - fuck that. I agree. Any religious group can exist, but they should not decide what the rest of the people can do. If they try to tell others what to do and how to live they should get a good loud STFU, and to hell with their feelings. If they actually attack someone, these attackers should get a good ass kicking and some jail time. That ALSO applies to the wingnuts right here in the USA. “You go to your church and I’ll go to mine” > [@JRDelirious](#): > > What would be the point? They live in another universe, for all intents and purposes. Their way is the right way 'cause G-d told them so. > > Israel is in a tough spot. It exists as a homeland for Jews, after it was kind of severely proved to them that no matter how well they assimilated into western societies, when time for a scapegoat came that didn’t matter. But this in turn carries with it an implication that they should accommodate ANYONE “Jewish enough”, and that they can’t raise the “assimilate or bugger off” argument with a straight face. > > But it also was established by mostly liberally educated, humanistically inclined, largely socialistic Jews, as a liberal democratic state and society. So it comes to a point when you have to decide: if the important thing is that you have your own FREE country where you are safe to be who you are, when do you get to the point that you have to say, sorry guys, the greater civil society trumps your religious society? Are you then betraying your foundational identity? > > Unenviable position. Too many groups or people get away with the “God says” excuse. It’s time reasonable and sane people stop letting them get away with it. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Any adult male who spits on a little girl needs to be “walked through his illogic” with a crowbar. Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/34 "2012-01-04T19:13:46Z")
Believe it or not, I kinda view this news story as a positive step. Here’s my reasoning. For years, it seems to me, the majority of Israeli society has treated these guys with kid gloves - which has simply emboldened them. Finally, it would appear, they are pissing enough folks off that they may be mobilizing the rest of society to put a lid on their encroachment on other people’s liberties. To my mind, the real story here is that the secular majority aren’t turning the other cheek as much as they have in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/35 "2012-01-04T19:53:02Z")
The subcontext here is that these guys have a zillion kids per family, and Israel is facing an existential crisis because the secular Jews have far fewer kids than the Arabs. So it’s not as simple as you guys make it. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/36 "2012-01-04T20:00:08Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The subcontext here is that these guys have a zillion kids per family, and Israel is facing an existential crisis because the secular Jews **have far fewer kids than the Arabs.** > > So it’s not as simple as you guys make it. The Haredim are not Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/37 "2012-01-04T20:01:56Z")
Exactly. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/38 "2012-01-04T20:09:56Z")
I think what **Fotheringay-Phipps** is hinting at is that the (Jewish) Israelis require the awesome breeding powers of the Haredim to counter the demographic threat from the Arab (Israelis). Dunno what conclusions one is supposed to draw from that which would make this story “not so simple” - that the majority (Jewish) Israelis have to put up with the Haredrim’s antics? Myself, I always discount alleged demographic threats for the simple reason that they presuppose such matters as birthrates will remain constant over time, when the reverse has always proven to be the case. The democraphic crushing of Israel was _supposed_ to take place in the 1970s - never happened. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/39 "2012-01-04T20:14:30Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I think what **Fotheringay-Phipps** is hinting at is that the (Jewish) Israelis require the awesome breeding powers of the Haredim to counter the demographic threat from the Arab (Israelis). Dunno what conclusions one is supposed to draw from that which would make this story “not so simple” - that the majority (Jewish) Israelis have to put up with the Haredrim’s antics? To some extent, yes. Part of it has to do with the dysfunctional “list” political system which makes these people (or their enablers) into kingmakers, but part of it is the looming population issue. > [@](#): > > Myself, I always discount alleged demographic threats for the simple reason that they presuppose such matters as birthrates will remain constant over time, when the reverse has always proven to be the case. The democraphic crushing of Israel was _supposed_ to take place in the 1970s - never happened. The Russians came. But the big picture is pretty much unchanged. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337/40 "2012-01-04T20:28:00Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > To some extent, yes. > > Part of it has to do with the dysfunctional “list” political system which makes these people (or their enablers) into kingmakers, but part of it is the looming population issue. There is no doubt that the quirks of the Israeli political system curently give these guys disproportinate clout. However, this clout is not an eternal verity. What exactly are you proposing the Haredrim are likely to do, if their whims are not catered to? Stop breeding? Emigrate? > [@](#): > > The Russians came. But the big picture is pretty much unchanged. The Russians did not come in the 1970s. En mass Russian immigration was a 1990s phenom. The predictions were wrong in the 1970s and there is no good reason to presume they are any better now. This is similar to the predictions made, based on current growth trends in the 1980s, that Japan would end up owning the Western world - that is, projecting the present trends unchanged and without regard to historical contingencies into the future. It is bubble-thinking. A lack of realization that things can, and generally will, change. What is seen in more recent studies is that Arab Israeli birthrates are in fact trending towards the Israeli norm. > **[Arab citizens of Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Birth_rates)** > > The Arab citizens of Israel form the country's largest ethnic minority. Their community mainly consists of former Mandatory Palestine citizens (and their descendants) who continued to inhabit the territory that was acknowledged as Israeli by the 1949 Armistice Agreements. Notions of identity among Israel's Arab citizens are complex, encompassing civic, religious, and ethnic components. Some sources report that the majority of Arabs in Israel prefer to be identified as Palestinian citi > [@](#): > > A January 2006 study rejects the “demographic time bomb” threat based on statistical data that shows Jewish births have increased while Arab births have begun to drop.[103] The study noted shortcomings in earlier demographic predictions (for example, in the 1960s, predictions suggested that Arabs would be the majority in 1990). The study also demonstrated that Christian Arab and Druze birth rates were actually below those of Jewish birth rates in Israel. The study used data from a Gallup poll to demonstrate that the desired family size for Arabs in Israel and Jewish Israelis were the same. The study’s population forecast for 2025 predicted that Arabs would comprise only 25.0% of the Israeli population. So much for the alleged demographic threat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-know-who-else-stopped-religious-fundamentalists-attacking-women/608337.md?page=3)