# You let WHO back into your life? (Religion, not relationships) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 22, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349 "2014-06-22T04:17:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/21 "2014-06-22T15:34:41Z")
I don’t think a person makes a “conscious” decision to believe something. You either believe or don’t believe. You can’t will yourself to believe something that you’re not already inclined to believe. So I’m guessing your friend still continued to believe in the church’s teachings even when he said he didn’t. So you can feel one of two ways about this. You can be disappointed that he didn’t try harder to disbelieve–which makes you no different from the sanctimonious who think non-believers just aren’t trying hard enough. Or, you can let out a sign of relief that your friend is being more honest with himself and not living a lie just to appease you or anyone else. As a non-believer, I don’t blame you for being disappointed. But your friend is under no obligation to act in accordance to anyone’s beliefs but his own, the same as anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Chef\_Troy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Chef\_Troy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chef_Troy)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/22 "2014-06-22T16:39:37Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t think a person makes a “conscious” decision to believe something. You either believe or don’t believe. You can’t will yourself to believe something that you’re not already inclined to believe. > > So I’m guessing your friend still continued to believe in the church’s teachings even when he said he didn’t. So you can feel one of two ways about this. You can be disappointed that he didn’t try harder to disbelieve–which makes you no different from the sanctimonious who think non-believers just aren’t trying hard enough. Or, you can let out a sign of relief that your friend is being more honest with himself and not living a lie just to appease you or anyone else. > > As a non-believer, I don’t blame you for being disappointed. But your friend is under no obligation to act in accordance to anyone’s beliefs but his own, the same as anyone else. I think it’s the other way around - that he doesn’t believe now any more than he did before, but he’s convinced himself that he does. Still, that’s just what _I_ see, and I freely admit I don’t have access to the inside of his head. He swears that things won’t be different between him and his friends, but I just don’t see how that can work out. That’s why I’m sad - that our friendship will be altered forever. Plus, I now have something I can’t tell him: namely, how I feel about this decision of his. Oh, I COULD, I suppose, but it wouldn’t be right for me to. It’s none of my business. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/23 "2014-06-22T16:52:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s like saying "What destructive habit should I replace smoking with?"What _are_ you talking about? In what way did the Nazis “implement” evolution? Maybe he meant eugenics? Naturally, it’s quack science, but a lot of people used evolution and Darwinism to justify it. (Sadly, not just Nazis) ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/24 "2014-06-22T17:07:16Z")
It took only 12 posts for the Nazis (or in this case, the Nazi’s) to make their appearance. It used to take far more. Land sakes, I don’t know what this world is coming to. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/25 "2014-06-22T17:14:53Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Maybe he meant eugenics? Naturally, it’s quack science, but a lot of people used evolution and Darwinism to justify it. (Sadly, not just Nazis) There are ways to tell quack science from real science. If only there was a way to tell quack religions from real religions. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/26 "2014-06-22T19:31:01Z")
My pet theory is that only about 10% of religious people truly believe in it (these people would also be known as “Republican primary voters” in the U.S.) The other 90% do it for social reasons - they just want to fit into their community or otherwise portray a certain image to the world, and cherry-pick a religion if they have to. When I was in school, most of the Middle Eastern and Indian kids seemed to identify themselves as “Catholic”. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/27 "2014-06-22T19:56:42Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I was inundated with religion growing up, but even at a young age, I never really believed. But I always saw that as a failing in myself. I guess I’m the opposite of **Jeff** on this, because I can somewhat understand belief, but I can’t understand wanting to believe and not doing so. Why would you (generic, not just **nwye** ) want to believe something you know not to be true? And if you don’t know it not to be true, why would you say “I want to believe it” but not “I believe it”? > [@Chef\_Troy](#): > > I think it’s the other way around - that he doesn’t believe now any more than he did before, but he’s convinced himself that he does. Still, that’s just what _I_ see, and I freely admit I don’t have access to the inside of his head. I honestly don’t understand how someone can go from being an atheist to being religious. I don’t mean that rhetorically, I genuinely can’t follow the process there. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/28 "2014-06-22T20:07:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t think a person makes a “conscious” decision to believe something. You either believe or don’t believe. You can’t will yourself to believe something that you’re not already inclined to believe. That makes sense, but I’ve encountered people who do will themselves to believe things. Some of the salespeople in the software companies I’ve worked for seemed to go through a mental effort to believe that the products we were selling were the best available. It’s easier to sell something that you believe in, so they forced themselves to believe. Now, there’s a big difference between believing you’re selling the best small-footprint DBMS and believing in a religion. But I have seen people who bounce around from one religion to another, and every time they change they fully accept the doctrine of their new church. This lasts until they get restless, at which point they pick something else to believe in. I don’t know **Chef Troy’s** friend, so I don’t know why he acts as he does. I will say that there’s no logical contradiction between believing in God and being disgusted in much of what’s been done in God’s name. It could well be that this person was disgusted with his church, and has now found one he likes better. That is, his alienation from religion as a whole may have been an overly broad emotional reaction, and once he sorted out his feelings he moderated his position. I find the subject of belief to be very interesting. What is belief, and how to people come to believe in things? It seems to me that it’s not a single concept: that when one person says he or she believes something, it may mean something different than if another person says the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/29 "2014-06-22T20:48:56Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > It took only 12 posts for the Nazis (or in this case, the Nazi’s) to make their appearance. It used to take far more. Land sakes, I don’t know what this world is coming to. Point taken … I should have used the example of forced sterilization of mental health patients in the United States during that time period. Good thing we only [force sterilization on prisoners](http://rt.com/usa/167660-california-illegal-sterilization-women/) today !!! ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/30 "2014-06-22T21:11:22Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > That makes sense, but I’ve encountered people who do will themselves to believe things. Some of the salespeople in the software companies I’ve worked for seemed to go through a mental effort to believe that the products we were selling were the best available. It’s easier to sell something that you believe in, so they forced themselves to believe. I don’t believe that’s quite the same thing as what I’m talking about. If I’m hired by a company to sell a product, then I have a vested interest in crafting a convincing sales pitch. Over time, it probably wouldn’t take long for the convincing sales pitch to work on _me_, especially if I’m not regularly confronted with contrary messaging. But I still haven’t “willed” myself to believe anything. My environment has made believing easier, and I voluntarily put myself in that environment. But I didn’t consciously decide to go from a non-believer to a believer. Not any more than a person consciously makes themselves learn another language. Whether they learn something is up to their brain’s synapses. It’s up to them to put themselves in the conducive environment. > [@](#): > > Now, there’s a big difference between believing you’re selling the best small-footprint DBMS and believing in a religion. But I have seen people who bounce around from one religion to another, and every time they change they fully accept the doctrine of their new church. This lasts until they get restless, at which point they pick something else to believe in. I’m skeptical that these people are true believers, though. They may profess belief and say all the right things. But it seems to me that it would be a rare individual indeed who can swap out one religion for a new one without any lingering old beliefs conflicting with new ones . I’ve been a non-believing agnostic for more than ten years now. I was brought up in a religiously devout household and was taught some crazy-ass things. Even though intellectually I reject everything, I know an impression was left on me that I will probably never be able to shake. And this is completely involuntarily on my part. If I’m not responsible for the things I haven’t unlearned, I’m also not responsible for the things I have learned. > [@Hershele Ostropoler](#): > > I can’t understand wanting to believe and not doing so. Why would you (generic, not just nwye) want to believe something you know not to be true? And if you don’t know it not to be true, why would you say “I want to believe it” but not “I believe it”? You really can’t understand wanting to believe something is true, but knowing it’s a fantasy? What if someone gave you a lottery ticket and told you that it’s worth a million dollars. And they seem so convincing…and lord knows you could really use a million dollars. Wouldn’t you probably want to believe them? But this is not tantamount to actually believing them, especially if you know this person to be untrustworthy and given to delusion. _What a fool believes, the wise man has the power to reason away_. A fool sees a beautiful girl and immediately says, “SHE’S MINE!” The wise man sees the beautiful girl and says, “I want to believe she’s mine, but alas I know she’s not.” The key word here is “wise”. A wise person doesn’t believe whatever his heart wants to be true. He or she is guided by evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/31 "2014-06-22T21:11:24Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Point taken … I should have used the example of forced sterilization of mental health patients in the United States during that time period. Good thing we only [force sterilization on prisoners](http://rt.com/usa/167660-california-illegal-sterilization-women/) today !!! The headline reads “Confirmed: 39 women **illegally** sterilized in California prisons”(bolding mine), and the last one was in 2011. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/32 "2014-06-22T21:29:48Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Point taken … I should have used the example of forced sterilization of mental health patients in the United States during that time period. Good thing we only [force sterilization on prisoners](http://rt.com/usa/167660-california-illegal-sterilization-women/) today !!! … that still doesn’t have anything to do with evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/33 "2014-06-23T00:51:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > . . . In what way did the Nazis “implement” evolution? Goebbels thought it was a bad idea to sentence Jews to labor camps, to be worked to death. He was afraid this, by selection, would lead to a stronger, healthier, and more vigorous variety of Jews, because the weak would all die off, but the strong would endure. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/34 "2014-06-23T02:07:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Except we could take you to where the equipment is that will show you cosmic rays exist. Where can you take me to show that God exists? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Try Zen. Right. The evidence seems to be only subjective- I don’t think it could be any other way, but I don’t know for sure. Anyway, subjective experiences can’t be objectively demonstrated the way, for example, math can. So, a powerful, direct experience of God or whatever people think they’re seeing can be very convincing yet incommunicable. OTOH, there are identifiable varieties of religious experience, William James for one [wrote about it](http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Varieties_of_Religious_Experience.html?id=kYRjBqSV03MC). If religious experiences fall into a finite set of categories, people who happen to stumble into the same ones will share some kind of affinity or connection due to this powerful, shared subjective experience. So, yeah. Whatever is motivating him is probably subjective and not scrutable to the rest of us. I guess there isn’t a law saying you have to like it… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/35 "2014-06-23T02:08:18Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > And if you don’t know it not to be true, why would you say “I want to believe it” but not “I believe it”? Just because there’s a shred of a possibility that something’s true, that doesn’t mean you can convince yourself to believe it’s true even if you want to believe it. Remember, just because you can partition the universe of possibilities into A and not-A, it doesn’t mean that there are coin-flip odds of each being true. On Tuesday of next week, Christina Hendricks either will or won’t show up at my door, begging to be my love slave. There is, I suppose, some infinitesimally small chance that this could happen, and I’d sure _like_ to believe it will, but uh-uh. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/36 "2014-06-23T02:14:34Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > The question is what do we replace religion with? ?? In 1860, was “the question” what do we replace slavery with? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/37 "2014-06-23T02:18:12Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > My pet theory is that only about 10% of religious people truly believe in it (these people would also be known as “Republican primary voters” in the U.S.) The other 90% do it for social reasons - they just want to fit into their community or otherwise portray a certain image to the world, and cherry-pick a religion if they have to. When I was in school, most of the Middle Eastern and Indian kids seemed to identify themselves as “Catholic”. You may be right about all of this…but let me point out that Catholicism has a long and entrenched history in parts of India (especially the coastal south, where Portuguese traders were an influence for centuries), so some of those Indian kids might have been as multi-generationally Catholic as, say, someone from Ireland or France. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/38 "2014-06-23T03:55:00Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > I don’t understand where belief comes from for some people. I can understand being convinced by evidence. I can understand having an emotional experience that changes one’s outlook. What’s beyond me is believing in something simply because you’ve decided to believe it. It’s called “wishful thinking” and everyone should be able to understand that, we’re all guilty of it. Wishful thinking is not always wrong, but it is always suspect, and you should not need to be a philosopher to understand **that.** ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/39 "2014-06-23T04:11:07Z")
One thing I recently learned is that belief is an emotion. It is somewhat influenced by evidence, but is typically greatly strengthened by the mere passage of time. It is very hard to shake a long held belief. Like love, you can know the belief is doing you no good, but still be unable to stop feeling it. And like love, you can miss it when it is gone and go back to the bastard or religion that done you wrong. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349/40 "2014-06-23T04:40:18Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > One thing I recently learned is that belief is an emotion. It is somewhat influenced by evidence, but is typically greatly strengthened by the mere passage of time. It is very hard to shake a long held belief. > > Like love, you can know the belief is doing you no good, but still be unable to stop feeling it. And like love, you can miss it when it is gone and go back to the bastard or religion that done you wrong. **WHAP! WHAP! WHAP! _crack_ WHAP! [something involving a lit cigarette held to your cheek]** Now, Who made you, my child? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-let-who-back-into-your-life-religion-not-relationships/691349.md?page=3)