You meet a genuine miracle worker. Do you give her moral/metaphysical musings any special weight?

Yes, this. Even if we accept, for the sake of argument, that her powers were granted by God, that does not necessarily mean that she has any particular insight about the nature of God or of the world. An alternate hypothesis might be that she developed her philosophy entirely on her own in the same mundane ways that any human develops a philosophy, and that God saw that her philosophy, while not necessarily correct, nonetheless led to her being personally exceptionally moral, and thus decided to reward her for it.

In any event, I don’t consider the question to be one of particular importance. She’s averting disasters and healing people and so on: That’s good. She’s teaching nonviolence and acceptance: That’s good. Her miracles are likely, rightly or wrongly, to convince others of nonviolence and acceptance: Also good. Whether these good things are because of the existence of God, or despite the lack of existence of God, they are still good.

Of course not. Recurrent argument I have with some of the Jesus-people contingent. “But he actually did these things, so he’s God”.

“If someone shows up with the powers of Superman from the comic books, can fly, bullets bounce off him after he outruns them to get in front of them, can lift freight trains with one pinky finger, can incinerate things with heat vision… that don’t make him God. It just makes him a person with impressive powers. Why you think it oughta be different for this Jesus dude for being able to walk on water and raise the dead and come back from the dead himself? That don’t make him God either!”

Or bearing the word of God for that matter.

If someone has teachings that are enlightening, they should inherently enlighten. Look, if there’s a star up in the sky that’s spectacularly bright, it shouldn’t require a shitload of diagrams and argumentation to draw my attention to it and convince me that it’s spectacularly bright. “Hey AHunter3, there’s a seriously bright fucking star in the sky, go take a look”, maybe, but if that’s not sufficient for me to find it on my own, it ain’t all that bright. I got eyes.

I selected both that it depends on the disagreement and that my position is nuanced. The thing is, I really look at it in reverse, in that the works of a miracle worker are only meaningful IF they are consistent with his teachings. That is, using Jesus as an example, I get that a lot of people, particularly at the dawn of Christianity, were swayed to believe in him because of the miracles. It seems the line of reasoning is that being a miracle worker implies he has the backing of God, therefore his words are going to be largely consistent with the message of God, he claims to be God, ergo he IS God and his teachings are thus truth. In this case, missing the claim to be God, we can only say that the teachings are close enough to be blessed with those powers.

But the thing is, I really don’t buy this line of reasoning, because even if one has proved beyond reasonable doubt that I’d understand as super natural or miraculous, that doesn’t mean they come from God. Maybe this person is just an amazing magician/illusionist so skilled as to pass the scrutiny of anyone watching and unethical enough to let people REALLY believe that they come from God rather than just suspend disbelief in the performance. Or maybe it’s along the lines of the adage that any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic. Or maybe they ARE of some sort of celestial being but not necessarily in a way that’s analogous to God or gods or source that is inherently worth listening to. Or maybe it’s just pure dumb luck, akin to mutants from X-Men, where there’s no meaning to the source of the powers at all.

Instead, I take the opposite approach, that it’s the teachings the lend weight to the purpose of miracles. Again, using Jesus as an example, I think his miracles have meaning (assuming for the sake of discussion they happened) because of his teachings, because he taught of love, generosity, compassion, etc. His teachings are consistent with his miracles, and his teachings are generally consistent with my own beliefs.

As for this teacher, like with many spiritual types, the superficial messages are often along the same lines, but it’s the underlying philosophies and reasonings are what separate these types of people. That is, again, most spiritual leaders talk about helping and serving others, but if that were enough, then we wouldn’t have so many different religions and life philosophies. Some do these things out of fear, some out of compassion, others because of an afterlife or reincarnation, some for more complicated reasons. It’s ultimately the motivations that I can suss out from being around someone that drives me to agree with, or not, their life philosophies. If they’re consistent, I’ll be more likely to trust them and actually believe that at least they believe they’re miracles, if not, even if I have no real explanation at all, I’ll be more likely to be skeptical.

And even in that, for people whose spirtual paths and philosophies I largely agree with, I’ve yet to find anyone where I agree with everything. Hell, some I’m not just debatable with on certain points, but flat out think they’re wrong. At the same time, I believe what I believe because I think I’m right, but I recognize I’m probably wrong about a lot, maybe even more than I’m right about. So my views are constantly evolving. Beyond that, it’s just really hard to know how I’d react without meeting and being in the presence of that person.

Ororo WAS leader of the X-Men. For YEARS. And much better at it than Cyclops, too. As proof of the latter, I point out that she murdered Xavier exactly zero times, which is significantly fewer than Cyke did. Also she had the sense not to pretend to (a) be leading a team of mutant-hunters and (b) simultaneouseously pretend to be leading a team of evil mutants

i was going to counter that Biblical miracle-workers were pretty routinely wiser than average and plugged into the plans of the Lord of Hosts, but then I realized you’d counter my counter by saying “Samson.” :cool:

I’m not necessarily ready to change everything, but I’m definitely willing to listen a bit harder. Not to mention that she’s shown she has the chops to back it up. Does she believe that God will put her where she needs to be to save those who need saving? Or is she willing to accept logistical support to maximize her saving potential?

ETA: Glad you’re back in form, Skald! Yours is one robot-fueled reign of terror that I want to be a part of!

Antimatter-fueled; robot-implemented.

Given what I’ve seen her do in the OP, I have to say she has some supernatural abilities. I say supernatural to mean exceeding what we now know to be natural. Humans today do several things that would have been called supernatural a century ago.

She seems to refuse to get rich doing what she does, and that’s a good thing. Her teachings seem to come down to “Be good to each other.” I can live with that. She doesn’t promise fire and brimstone to those who disagree with her theories about God.

Famed basketball coach and curmudgeon Bobby Knight doesn’t buy the whole thanking God for this free throw thing. “If God got you that free throw, He also screwed the other team.”

I don’t normally participate in these wild hypotheticals but…well…welcome back, Skald!

I’ll primarily collect and reorganize quotes from various other responders…

Anne has convinced me that she is able to utilize paranormal (an alternative but similar term for supernatural that avoids the issues of nature and its provenance) or psychic or PSI or other-than-the-average-temporo/spatial-peer’s abilities or technology to achieve results that I and my peers have not thought possible in our current time and place. But a person’s being able to do something doesn’t necessarily mean said person understands how or why that ability exists (c.f. Clarke) and has no relation to that person’s proficiency in theology, ethics, or philosophy.

I used to do this odd little trick. People would complain to me that their noses were stuffy and their sinuses felt like they were going to explode (classic symptoms of a cold). I would rub a couple spots on the backs of their heads and they’d say, “Hey! You’re clearing my sinuses!” I could (and still can) do that at will. I don’t attribute that to any technological or scientific techniques and I certainly don’t credit any deities, religious perspectives, or philosophical stances. Would you like to come and learn to be a non-theist with me?

There’s a giant gap between demonstrating an unusual ability and proving or disproving the existence of divine or demonic entities. I really don’t think they’re intrinsically related.

Well, first off, I think it would be nice if the God of Abraham were to

  1. take decisive action in the Middle East
  2. make a bold statement of some kind about the Catholic Church and its mixed history
  3. enlighten and punish the profiteers who are exploiting his name and reputation to benefit their own hubris and avarice
  4. do some kind of bold, instantaneous, globally witnessable, fully testable, completely irrefutable action to educate non-believers (like me). I’m not talking about local minor tricks but multi-location major feats; something on the scale of instant simultaneous full restoration of the Salton Sea, Mono Lake, and the Aral Sea would be convincing…
  5. instantaneously and irresistibly impose a planet-wide pacifist benevolence in the hearts and minds of all creatures

But, then again, that last one is a bit sketchy if, as some writers attested, God’s delegate/surrogate/incarnation really did say things like “I bring not the dove of peace but the sword of justice” and “whoever loves me shall not love their father nor mother nor brother nor sister.” in which case the God of Jesus and Saul/Paul would do like that Star Trek (TOS) episode and make swords pop into everyone’s hands and force everyone to try to kill each other. I guess that would supply the same proof, though.

And, even then…

So believers have a built-in ‘don’t fall for fakirs’ and non-believers aren’t willing to budge. So even if there was an Elohim and that entity tried to reveal itself, a lot of people would still refuse to believe.
–G!