# You need time off for surgery? You're fired! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749 "2009-04-11T16:29:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/21 "2009-04-11T23:21:21Z")
> [@Long\_Time\_First\_Time](#): > > It’s a good illustration of how America’s completely screwed up health care industry affects lots of other things. > > The real scandal here is that the women’s ability to have life saving surgery is so completely tied to her employment. This is why I always say that the current health care in America would make perfect sense only to a medieval feudal lord. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/22 "2009-04-11T23:25:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Now you’re just making guesses. And so are you, in effect. > [@](#): > > Zales has over 2,000 stores, and at least 10,000 employees in their retail operations alone. One insurance claim is going to make zero difference to their insurance costs. Are you saying that large employers never discriminate against employees who may raise insurance rates? > [@](#): > > From a cost/benefit point of view, it would make much more sense to hire some minimum-wage kid to fill in for her and then fire or transfer the replacement. More sense than what? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/23 "2009-04-11T23:32:03Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I learned long ago that there are two sides to every story. What I have learned is that the side that is often wrong does not want to reveal right away their side of the story. > [@](#): > > Contacted by the Record, Zales would not comment. Charles Camilleri called Zales’ human resources, explaining it was a life-or-death matter, and he simply needed a fax from Zales to start the COBRA process. He was floored by the employee’s response. > > "She said, “Well, if the surgery was rescheduled, then it’s probably not a life-or-death situation,” Charles Camilleri recalled. "I absolutely was blown away > > Once again, the Record contacted Zales’ corporate office, stressing that Rose Camilleri’s condition could be fatal. > > That afternoon, Charles got good news from Zales. > > “They’re turning my mother’s health coverage back on today and expediting the COBRA information,” he said. > > After paying the first premium of $830, Rose had surgery last week and was back home on Sunday. “I don’t think we would have had the surgery so soon if it weren’t for your e-mail,” Charles Camilleri said. “They probably would have kept us hanging.” > > Perhaps. > > Coming to terms > > Under the law, an employer has up to 60 days to inform a terminated employee of their right to continue coverage under COBRA, says Troy Oechsner, deputy superintendent of health at the New York Insurance Department. > > But in an urgent case, such as Camilleri’s, Oechsner said the insurance department will intervene. “We’d put pressure on the relevant parties to do the right thing,” he said. > > Camilleri, who is looking forward to a full recovery, still cries over losing her job. “Every day, I think about it,” she said. “I try to think what I did wrong. I still can’t get over why the company did this when they heard I was sick.” Better news, but so far it is clear that she lost her job anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/24 "2009-04-11T23:38:54Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > More sense than what? Well, more sense than firing someone who sold $1,000,000 of jewelry in one year, allegedly for the first time ever in the company’s Northeast District. The more I think about this, the less sense it makes. If it were I running a business, I’d certainly hold a job open for someone with that kind of ability. And - I’ll add, before you reiterate that it must be some other reason - I’d put up with an awful lot of prima donna from someone with that kind of ability. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > This is why I always say that the current health care in America would make perfect sense only to a medieval feudal lord. That’s really an excellent way to phrase it. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/25 "2009-04-11T23:54:52Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > before you reiterate that it must be some other reason Please either (1) show me where I claimed that it must be some other reason; or (2) apologize and admit that I made no such claim. Your choice. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/26 "2009-04-12T00:04:37Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Please either (1) show me where I claimed that it must be some other reason; or (2) apologize and admit that I made no such claim. > > Your choice. Thank you. Your first post in this thread said, precisely: > [@](#): > > There’s a pretty good chance this woman’s job ended for reasons completely unrelated to he request for medical leave. That qualifies as “some other reason,” as far as i can tell. For some reason, i was under the impression that your stupidity and lack of reasoning ability was largely confined to the issue of AGW. Guess i was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/27 "2009-04-12T00:07:46Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Please either (1) show me where I claimed that it must be some other reason; or (2) apologize and admit that I made no such claim. > > Your choice. Thank you. Interesting point. If you had merely suggested that we reserve judgment until we heard Zales’ side of the story, you wouldn’t be getting any grief. But you’ve loaded your posts with either outright statements or innuendos that they probably had another reason, or were looking for good reasons to downsize staff generally, etc. And while you’re right that we haven’t heard the employer’s side of the story, if any, such evidence as we do have suggests that it was done purely to avoid having someone on the roster who would be out for surgery on the company health insurance’s tab. In short, you’ve taken on yourself to blacken this woman’s reputation for no evident reason except that you hear lies from unemployed people at your job. (If YOU can be believed…) If you want balance, be balanced. If you denigrate and slander, expect to be denigrated and slandered. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/28 "2009-04-12T00:14:24Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Your first post in this thread said, precisely:That qualifies as “some other reason,” as far as i can tell. Do you understand that there is a difference between “there’s a pretty good chance of X” and “X must be so”? Seriously, do you understand that there is a difference? > [@](#): > > For some reason, i was under the impression that your stupidity and lack of reasoning ability was largely confined to the issue of AGW. Guess i was wrong. I’ll assume that you did not read my post carefully before I conclude that you are stupid. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/29 "2009-04-12T00:21:54Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Interesting point. If you had merely suggested that we reserve judgment until we heard Zales’ side of the story, you wouldn’t be getting any grief. But you’ve loaded your posts with either outright statements or innuendos that they probably had another reason, or were looking for good reasons to downsize staff generally, etc. Do you admit that I never claimed that there “must” be another reason? > [@](#): > > And while you’re right that we haven’t heard the employer’s side of the story, if any, such evidence as we do have suggests that it was done purely to avoid having someone on the roster who would be out for surgery on the company health insurance’s tab. :shrug: I’m skeptical of self-serving and uncorroborated claims. With respect to the particular claim in question, I have heard many claims of a similar nature and they have usually turned out to be false or wildly exaggerated. By analogy, if somebody told a story of being abducted by extraterrestrial aliens, we could also say that the only evidence we have suggests that the abduction did in fact take place. But it would still be smart to be skeptical. ETA: By the way, I’m not claiming that this woman’s story is as non-credible as an alien abduction story. Although I imagine the strawmanners will try to pretend this. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/30 "2009-04-12T00:29:49Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Interesting point. If you had merely suggested that we reserve judgment until we heard Zales’ side of the story, you wouldn’t be getting any grief. But you’ve loaded your posts with either outright statements or innuendos that they probably had another reason, or were looking for good reasons to downsize staff generally, etc. And while you’re right that we haven’t heard the employer’s side of the story, if any, such evidence as we do have suggests that it was done purely to avoid having someone on the roster who would be out for surgery on the company health insurance’s tab. In short, you’ve taken on yourself to blacken this woman’s reputation for no evident reason except that you hear lies from unemployed people at your job. (If YOU can be believed…) > > If you want balance, be balanced. If you denigrate and slander, expect to be denigrated and slandered. Whoa, \*\*Polycarp \*\* don’t hold up, tell us how you really feel about brazil84. 🙂 And to me it is clear that brazil84 is just demonstrating his idiocy here (In the sense that he wants all to ignore the context and that he resorts to Ad nauseam arguments when he does not have anything else to say in the defense of his sorry points), there is no need to say that brazil84 is an idiot **mhendo** , the evidence just accumulates. An example here: Already others have confirmed what the lady said, brazil84 just expects that dopers will miss that other confirmation (the OP posted 2 cites) of what she is saying does not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/31 "2009-04-12T00:48:51Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Do you understand that there is a difference between “there’s a pretty good chance of X” and “X must be so”? > > Seriously, do you understand that there is a difference? There is not enough difference between the two to conclude you meant anything other than her firing was probably justified. Perhaps you should work on clarity if you are misunderstood so often. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/32 "2009-04-12T01:02:42Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > There is not enough difference between the two to conclude you meant anything other than her firing was probably justified. Perhaps you should work on clarity if you are misunderstood so often. I noticed that too coming from brasil84, but I did not want to jump on his bullshit explanation until others confirmed my assessment without pointing that out. When it happens to me I can blame the fact that English is my second language, but the fact that even I can spot the BS of other posters that are supposed to be born with English as the original language should make those posters die of the embarrassment. I still wonder what in hell is his excuse for not understanding or expressing points in a proper way. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/33 "2009-04-12T01:05:57Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > There is not enough difference between the two to conclude you meant anything other than her firing was probably justified. I’m a little confused. Are you saying that “her firing was probably justified” means basically the same thing as “her firing must have been justified”? Simple yes or no question. > [@](#): > > Perhaps you should work on clarity if you are misunderstood so often. And perhaps people should respond to the point I actually make, as opposed to the point they wish I had made. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/34 "2009-04-12T01:10:35Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m a little confused. Are you saying that “her firing was probably justified” means basically the same thing as “her firing must have been justified”? For the purpose of messageboard debate, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/35 "2009-04-12T01:14:34Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Do you admit that I never claimed that there “must” be another reason? Holy fuck, you’re pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/36 "2009-04-12T01:23:22Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Better news, but so far it is clear that she lost her job anyhow. Given the resulting publicity, I’d imagine several area jewelers will be lining up at her hospital room door on Monday morning to try to hire her, and likely for a healthy signing bonus too. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/37 "2009-04-12T01:31:51Z")
That’s what I hope too. She has a proven track record of being great at sales, and hell, she may even try her hand at selling something else…advertising, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/38 "2009-04-12T01:50:14Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > For the purpose of messageboard debate, yes. For me it’s different. However, from now on, whenever you claim that there is a “pretty good chance” of something or that something is “probably” true, I will interpret it to mean you are saying that the thing “must be” true. Ok? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/39 "2009-04-12T01:53:08Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > For me it’s different. However, from now on, whenever you claim that there is a “pretty good chance” of something or that something is “probably” true, I will interpret it to mean you are saying that the thing “must be” true. Ok? OK. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/40 "2009-04-12T02:17:29Z")
Nothing obvious on the corporate website; perhaps if they ignore it, it will go away. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749.md?page=3)