# You need time off for surgery? You're fired! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749 "2009-04-11T16:29:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/61 "2009-04-12T15:18:40Z")
All the awards can be verified, if she was lying, Zales could easily show what’s true. The timing of her firing can be verified as can the date of her doctors visit and when she informed Zales. Again, if untrue, Zales could have said something. Zales could have easily given her all the info about COBRA in a timely manner, there was no reason to delay. Zales proved that by doing so under the threat of media exposure. You said there was a pretty good chance she was fired for other reasons. The only reason I can think of for firing a stellar employee is doing something very wrong=gross misconduct which would have made her ineligible for COBRA. I never insulted you, why the personal attack? I’m stating why I think Zales is in the wrong, there are points they could have refuted yet failed to do so leading me to think the points are true. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/62 "2009-04-12T15:22:48Z")
And when publishing the story, a newspaper has a responsibility to confirm facts as much as possible. Newspapers get contacted by people who think they were wronged every day. And the vast majority of them don’t pan out enough to put into print. This one made it into print. It isn’t certain something is there, but if the basic facts of the story can’t be confirmed (by talking to other store employees off the record for instance), they shouldn’t publish. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/63 "2009-04-12T15:38:22Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > All the awards can be verified, if she was lying, Zales could easily show what’s true. > > The timing of her firing can be verified as can the date of her doctors visit and when she informed Zales. Sure, and if this woman files a complaint, for example, with the New York State Division of Human Rights, I would be happy to review Zale’s response and re-evaluate my position. > [@](#): > > Zales could have easily given her all the info about COBRA in a timely manner, . Legally, “timely” means within 60 days. Do you deny that this was done? > [@](#): > > there was no reason to delay Of course there was a reason to delay – simple beaurocratic inefficiency. > [@](#): > > You said there was a pretty good chance she was fired for other reasons. The only reason I can think of for firing a stellar employee is doing something very wrong You are accepting this woman’s claim that she was a stellar employee. She could have had problems in other areas, even assuming that she recently received all of these sales awards. Here’s an experiment for you: Go down to the administrative court where they hold unemployment insurance hearings in your area. Start talking to employees who have been denied benefits on grounds of misconduct and ask if they were excellent employees or not. > [@](#): > > =gross misconduct which would have made her ineligible for COBRA. There is plenty of misconduct which does not qualify as gross misconduct. For example, coming to work late with no good reason after a warning. > [@](#): > > I never insulted you, why the personal attack? You insulted me by claiming falsely and without any support that I “dance around what [I’m] really thinking,” > [@](#): > > I’m stating why I think Zales is in the wrong, there are points they could have refuted yet failed to do so leading me to think the points are true. As noted above, it’s common practice for large employers to decline comment on personnel matters. I wouldn’t read anything into that at all. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/64 "2009-04-12T15:41:05Z")
I found [this blog](http://www.correntewire.com/another_reason_universal_health_care_you_wont_get_fired_needing_surgery) of someone who sent the following email to Zales: > [@](#): > > ``` > I was greatly disturbed by the April 9, 2009 article in the Times-Herald Record that detailed the termination of one of your star salespeople, Rose Camilleri from the Woodbury Common Outlets. It appears that she was fired in a discriminatory manner due to taking time off for needed surgery. Could you please explain why a million dollar performer would be fired? I've never worked in any industry where extraordinary salespeople were fired for anything less than a true and documented cause. So is life saving surgery now considered egregious cause at Zales? > > It is beyond stunning that your company's Human Resources department not only took an exceptional amount of time to provide Ms. Camilleri with the appropriate COBRA paperwork, but went beyond that and felt the need to provide a supposed medical diagnosis. If they are so confident in their diagnostic abilities, perhaps they could make some money as a side line for your company. No, right, practicing medicine without a license is illegal and any semi-professional HR department would realize this fact. > > Suffice it to say, I will never do business with your company or any of your subsidiaries ever again. I will also be forwarding this email to family, friends, and coworkers, none of whom will choose to do business with such an unethical company. > > The current insured value of my jewelry is over $XX,XXX. You will never see one red cent when that value increases. > > ``` And received the typical corporate talking-head response: > [@](#): > > ``` > Thank you for contacting us regarding Rose Camilleri. Our customers and our employees are of the utmost importance to us. > > As in all businesses, we do, from time to time, have to make some difficult personnel decisions. When faced with these situations, rest assured that we make those decisions in light of all applicable facts and circumstances. As I am sure you can understand, we do not share with the media the specific facts and circumstances of these individual personnel decisions. > > We truly appreciate your input. We value your trust and patronage and hope that you will continue to provide us with the opportunity to serve you. > > Sincerely, > > Zales Customer Service > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/65 "2009-04-12T15:58:51Z")
She has the awards, given to her **by Zales** that indicate she is a stellar employee. If there were other problems why wait until she needs surgery to fire her? Just because Zales has 60 days on COBRA doesn’t mean they have to take it, the right thing to do is to expedite matters in all cases. Sadly, doing the right thing is rare in the world of Big Business. Again, if any of what she claims were untrue I have no doubt Zales would say so with appropriate documentation. You do dance around, why not just come out and say she was wrong and Zales was right? That’s what you keep inferring. I didn’t insult you nor did **Guin** yet you felt the need for name calling. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/66 "2009-04-12T16:11:25Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > She has the awards, given to her **by Zales** that indicate she is a stellar employee. You don’t know when she received those awards. > [@](#): > > If there were other problems why wait until she needs surgery to fire her? You don’t know that they waited like that. Heck, you don’t even know that she was fired. Apart from her self-serving claims, of course. > [@](#): > > Just because Zales has 60 days on COBRA doesn’t mean they have to take it, the right thing to do is to expedite matters in all cases. Assuming that’s true, it doesn’t mean anything whatsoever the reasons for the woman’s separation from employment. > [@](#): > > Again, if any of what she claims were untrue I have no doubt Zales would say so with appropriate documentation. And again, you are an idiot. Do you deny it’s common for large employers to have policies against making that sort of response? > [@](#): > > You do dance around, why not just come out and say she was wrong and Zales was right? Because I don’t freaking know. Duh. > [@](#): > > That’s what you keep inferring. No it isn’t. > [@](#): > > I didn’t insult you nor did **Guin** yet you felt the need for name calling. Serious question: Is it an insult to state that a poster has a history of being a moron? Simple yes or no question. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/67 "2009-04-12T16:16:26Z")
Taking 60 days on COBRA doesn’t mean that she wasn’t covered in the meantime. She has the right to coverage through COBRA. The paperwork is basically a formality. (Not that most people can even afford COBRA.) In other words, the “delay” by Zales is a non-event. We have had employees take the maximum time to sign up, we’ve had COBRA notices go astray (they need to go out certified and we’ve had employees that never picked them up, for example) and they have never EVER had a lapse in coverage. Insurance companies know how to do things retroactively. It’s simply not a big deal. We had an employee a couple of years ago who had no previous warnings, written or verbal, no disciplinary actions, etc. who would have been fired had she taken time off to have surgery. Why? It was plastic surgery, she scheduled it during the holidays, she was reception, and she had taken a couple of months off earlier in the year for bariatric surgery. So yes, there are times when a surgery is pretty much the last straw. (She chose to quit.) My mother has an aortic aneurysm that they aren’t planning on doing surgery on. There may be a lot of variation in the severity of the problem which might make getting at the truth of the “life or death” rhetoric a little harder. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/68 "2009-04-12T16:26:56Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > > [@runner pat](#): > > > > She has the awards, given to her **by Zales** that indicate she is a stellar employee. If there were other problems why wait until she needs surgery to fire her? > > You don’t know when she received those awards. You really don’t read for detail do you? From the first link in the OP (bolded to assist the reading comprehension impaired) > [@](#): > > By Christine Young > Times Herald-Record > Posted: **April 09, 2009 - 2:00 AM** > > WASHINGTONVILLE — **Five months ago** , Rose Camilleri was a superstar at the Zales outlet at Woodbury Common Premium Outlets. > > **In November,** the diminutive grandmother with an Italian accent was flown to Dallas, home of Zales’ headquarters, where she was honored with a 1-carat diamond necklace for making $1 million in sales last year. OK, now count on your fingers with me. Starting with April 9 count back 5 months. March February January December November. It is pretty obvious that Ms Camilleri was given her award in November of 2008. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/69 "2009-04-12T16:34:41Z")
After my accident, when I quit the job I would not return to, they went over my COBRA coverage that day, did the paperwork and had the process completed by the next day. Until I was told, I was unaware that the coverage was retroactive if needed. Maybe the woman was unaware she was still covered. [QUOTE=brazil84] Serious question: **Is it an insult to state that a poster has a history of being a moron?** Simple yes or no question. [/QUOTE] You called her a moron and me an idiot. Nothing about past history, just a direct attack. As for what I bolded: Don’t ask a question you don’t want answered. You may not like the answer. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/70 "2009-04-12T17:07:53Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > You really don’t read for detail do you? Sure I do. But since you know the case so well, please state the month and year of **each** of the woman’s awards. And please tell me if you have any evidence to back up your claim besides this woman’s statements. Seems to me that at the very best, we know the date of one award. And even that would appear to be uncorroborated. But I must have not read very carefully. So please fill me in. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/71 "2009-04-12T17:09:22Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > You called her a moron and me an idiot. Nothing about past history, just a direct attack. > As for what I bolded: Don’t ask a question you don’t want answered. You may not like the answer. I would like the answer, please. Extremely simple yes or no question: **Is it an insult to state that a poster has a history of being a moron?** Simple yes or no question. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/72 "2009-04-12T17:10:16Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > She has the awards, given to her **by Zales** that indicate she is a stellar employee. If there were other problems why wait until she needs surgery to fire her? > > Just because Zales has 60 days on COBRA doesn’t mean they have to take it, the right thing to do is to expedite matters in all cases. Sadly, doing the right thing is rare in the world of Big Business. > > Again, if any of what she claims were untrue I have no doubt Zales would say so with appropriate documentation. > > You do dance around, why not just come out and say she was wrong and Zales was right? That’s what you keep inferring. I didn’t insult you nor did **Guin** yet you felt the need for name calling. And even if it could be argued that a hypothetically overworked Human Resources department (which I have as much right to hypothecate as does Sergio Mendez’s brother-in-law to suppose that there are other, more sinister reasons behind a firing) might take the sixty days to produce COBRA paperwork for the average terminated employee, would it not make sense to expedite the process when the circumstances surrounding her termination indicate that she is due for elective surgery to correct a potentilally fatal problem? Actually, as I’ve noted, Brazil84 does have a point of sorts – we only know one side of the story, and obviously someone in the midst of filing legal grievance is not going to produce any negatives regarding their own position. However, to suggest that one person might have been rightfully terminated without any evidence backing that suggestion other than that the suggestor works with unemployed people who often falsify their own cases, is to engage in stereotyping of the most blatant sort. We know that some “global warming skeptics” hold their view because they are being paid by Big Oil to do so. Applying the same logic, we would need to presume that our friend who so avidly holds to the position that Ms. Camilleri must have been terminated for cause holds his views on AGW owing to payments from Big Oil. If this is not true, as I assume it is not, it disproves his contention here. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/73 "2009-04-12T17:20:05Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I would like the answer, please. Extremely simple yes or no question: > > **Is it an insult to state that a poster has a history of being a moron?** > > Simple yes or no question. Yes. It’s your opinion(or others) that the person is a moron. It’s not a statement of fact. Others may feel the person has made an intelligent argument. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/74 "2009-04-12T17:25:15Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > However, to suggest that one person might have been rightfully terminated without any evidence backing that suggestion other than that the suggestor works with unemployed people who often falsify their own cases, is to engage in stereotyping of the most blatant sort. I’m not sure I would call it “stereotyping of the most blatant sort,” but whatever you want to call it, it’s not an unreasonable inference. Let me ask you this: Suppose Jane Smith (a total stranger to you) claimed “X” to you without any sort of proof. Suppose further that 100 people had claimed “X” to you in the past, and upon investigation, you learned that 85 of those people were lying. If you had to guess, would you guess that Jane’s story is true or false? And if you guessed it were false, would you be engaged in blatant stereotyping? > [@](#): > > We know that some “global warming skeptics” hold their view because they are being paid by Big Oil to do so. Would you mind providing a few examples of this? Thank you. > [@](#): > > Applying the same logic, we would need to presume that our friend who so avidly holds to the position that Ms. Camilleri must have been terminated for cause Same question I asked **Frank** : Please either show me where I claimed that Ms.Camilleri must have been terminated for cause or admit that I made no such claim and apologize. Your choice. > [@](#): > > If this is not true, as I assume it is not, it disproves his contention here. I don’t understand your point here. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/75 "2009-04-12T17:26:56Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Yes. Thank you. Next simple yes or no question: Do you agree that in this thread, **guinistasia** made such a statement about me? Simple yes or no question. ---
**Author:** ![regginbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ba9def/32.png) [@regginbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/regginbrow)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/76 "2009-04-12T17:33:48Z")
The thing with COBRA coverage is that you don’t need to wait until you’re fully signed up with it before seeking out medical services. The coverage is retroactively applied to the date of your terminated employment as long as you sign up within a certain time frame (63 days or something like that), and you can get reimbursed for any covered services you received. So in this case, the woman in the OP could have still had her surgery on schedule, signed up for COBRA, and gotten reimbursed in accordance with her insurance coverage. Of course, it’s very likely that she didn’t have that amount of cash on hand to front for the surgery while waiting for Zales to get around to sending the COBRA paperwork. However, Zales would end up paying for this surgery either way under this scenario, so if she was in fact fired for the cost of her surgery (which is illegal, btw), that makes this decision even more retarded. Also FWIW, a company the size of Zales is almost certainly self-insured, so Zales would be paying for the full cost of the surgery, not an insurance company. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/77 "2009-04-12T17:41:59Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Thank you. Next simple yes or no question: > > Do you agree that in this thread, **guinistasia** made such a statement about me? > > Simple yes or no question. Yes, I failed to notice the statement. However you called me an idiot and I had made no such statement about you. You do have a history of being a moron as is amply demonstrated in this thread and backed up by others. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/78 "2009-04-12T18:15:31Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Yes, I failed to notice the statement. God forbid you should apologize for falsely claiming that **Guinistasia** did not insult me. > [@](#): > > However you called me an idiot and I had made no such statement about you. Since you are in hair-splitting mode, I will point out that what I said was that you were being an idiot. But I’m not going to play games. I admit that I insulted you. But only after you insulted me. > [@](#): > > You do have a history of being a moron If you define “moron” as someone who argues aggressively in favor of unpopular views, then sure. But let’s do this: How about you quote me at my most moronic? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/79 "2009-04-12T18:37:07Z")
Let’s take this back to the topic of the thread, we’ll get nowhere going back and forth, it’s not about us anyway. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/80 "2009-04-12T18:43:01Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Let’s take this back to the topic of the thread, we’ll get nowhere going back and forth, it’s not about us anyway. Fine, feel free to go back to my question from before: Do you deny it’s common for large employers to have policies against making the sort of response you described earlier? And another question: Do you agree that when one party to a dispute describes the facts of that dispute, it’s common for that person to spin, exaggerate, or even lie about what happened? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749.md?page=5)