# You need time off for surgery? You're fired! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749 "2009-04-11T16:29:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/101 "2009-04-14T07:07:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Brazil, why do you do this to yourself? I enjoy arguing in favor of unpopular positions. > [@](#): > > The idiots are just going to be idiots. They will pounce on anyone who doesn’t come in to a thread like this with 110% support for the RO object of pity du jour. Not only do they not care about reason and logic, they absolutely oppose it and vilify anyone with the temerity to use it. I would say that’s a bit of an overstatement, but I am impressed with how idiotic people like **Frank** have been acting. I’ve lost count of the number of people in this thread have felt the need to attack a strawman rather than respond to the actual position I have taken. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/102 "2009-04-14T07:11:28Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > My personal experience does not match yours. Without revealing anything you consider private, how many situations like this one have you personally seen? ---
**Author:** ![Dante](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dante/32/9673_2.png) [@Dante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/103 "2009-04-14T15:08:02Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I enjoy arguing in favor of unpopular positions. I would think you’d argue positions in which you believe. Arguing a position simply because it’s unpopular, that’s kinda like, trolling…no? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/104 "2009-04-14T15:30:24Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > **Do you or do you not deny that it’s common for large employers to have policies against making the sort of response you describe?** Well, I don’t deny it. But many employers have official policies only for window dressing, when their actual behavior is quite different. Not long ago, I watched a video of a lawyer conducting a seminar that taught employers how to avoid hiring American citizens, so they could lie to the government about the necessity of hiring much cheaper immigrants. I’ll bet every one of those employers had an official policy against discrimination on the basis of national origin. Inasmuch as Zale’s has not yet explained why she was dismissed, the whole affair stinks to the heavens. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/105 "2009-04-14T15:35:32Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I can’t even figure out what brazil is arguing. I don’t think I care much, though. It’s a debating technique called doubt casting, i.e. trying to make an opponent’s facts look doubtful or uncertain without producing any substantial reason for doubting them. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/106 "2009-04-14T15:35:34Z")
Heh, I’ve seen in a professional capacity very moving stories that turned out, on investigation, to be not what they appeared at first. The example I’m thinking about is a case I was involved in many years ago as an articling student. The client was a lady who had taken mat leave (much more generous here in Canada than in the US) and was fired the day she came back - she had been with the company many years and was by all written accounts a stellar employee. Her claim was that her employer fired her because her mat leave was disrupting the business and the employer learned she planned on having further children, and so would prefer to have an employee who male or past having children - firing for this reason is not legal under Ontario law. The timing of the firing (“welcome back - you’re fired”) certainly looked bad. She seemed to have an excellent case. The employer made some sort of lame argument in their Statement of Defence that the firing was for “cause” - unspecified misconduct - which just looked, without details, like insult heaped on injury. It was the day before cross-examinations were to begin, the client dropped the bombshell - she was very nervous about being examined. Finally she confessed to her lawyers that she had, in fact, been skimming small amounts money from the business for years (she was their accountant), but was sufficiently clever at doing so that the boss had no proof - but when she went on mat leave, the replacement guy had gotten suspicious and the boss had believed him, even though the proof wasn’t really forthcomming … problem for the lawyer I was working for was what to do with the case? Can’t counsel perjury. He basically was forced to suddenly settle the case. It was a big blow to me at the time, having worked on the case and finding the lady’s plight very sympathetic and the corporation unfeelingly callous - but it certainly taught me the lesson: never trust to first appearences. There may be more to the story. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/107 "2009-04-14T15:58:27Z")
**Malthus** makes a good point; frankly, so does **brazil84**. Zale’s may be completely in the wrong here, but there also may be other circumstances we don’t know yet. I know of a couple of instances where an employee was fired that seemed completely arbitrary and wrong. In one case, the seemingly stellar ex-employee spent weeks badmouthing the company to anyone who would listen, including a media outlet. The company, on the advice of counsel, said absolutely nothing until the case was brought before a third party for adjutication. The opening statement by the company’s lawyer consisted of him showing footage from several weeks’ worth of security tapes. The model employee was seen clocking in and then immediately leaving the building. He’d return two or three hours later, work for a while, then leave again. He’d come back at the end of his shift to officially clock out. He lost his case. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/108 "2009-04-14T16:03:53Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Without revealing anything you consider private, how many situations like this one have you personally seen? Let’s see your’s: > [@brazil84](#): > > The other experience which informs my “bias,” such as it is, is that through my job I have personally witnessed many claims very similar to that of this woman. :dubious: **Sauron** and **Malthus** , that may be, but so far, we have no evidence of such. And Zales has not provided any, nor have they even commented. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/109 "2009-04-14T16:13:43Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Sauron** and **Malthus** , that may be, but so far, we have no evidence of such. And Zales has not provided any, nor have they even commented. Yeah, I know, but that’s kinda my point. Large companies tend to have teams of lawyers that will tell them to say absolutely nothing publicly in the early stages. Sometimes that’s because the company screwed up, and they want to keep the damage as minimal as possible. Sometimes, though, it’s because there’s no reason for them to say anything. They know they’ll be proven right. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/110 "2009-04-14T16:34:06Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Let’s see your’s: > > :dubious: I’m not sure what your point is. I’ve seen many situations similar to the one described here. At the same time, I recognize that it’s completely reasonable for you to be skeptical of claims made by a stranger which you see on the internet. I suggest that you should apply the same natural skepticism to the claims of this woman. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/111 "2009-04-14T16:41:49Z")
He kinda has a point there. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/112 "2009-04-14T16:46:08Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > **Malthus** makes a good point; frankly, so does **brazil84**. Zale’s may be completely in the wrong here, but there also may be other circumstances we don’t know yet. I know of a couple of instances where an employee was fired that seemed completely arbitrary and wrong. > > In one case, the seemingly stellar ex-employee spent weeks badmouthing the company to anyone who would listen, including a media outlet. The company, on the advice of counsel, said absolutely nothing until the case was brought before a third party for adjutication. The opening statement by the company’s lawyer consisted of him showing footage from several weeks’ worth of security tapes. The model employee was seen clocking in and then immediately leaving the building. He’d return two or three hours later, work for a while, then leave again. He’d come back at the end of his shift to officially clock out. > > He lost his case. > [@Malthus](#): > > It was a big blow to me at the time, having worked on the case and finding the lady’s plight very sympathetic and the corporation unfeelingly callous - but it certainly taught me the lesson: never trust to first appearences. There may be more to the story. It is OK to be suspicions but here is a question, that if you guys think about it, shows where many on the thread are coming from and the point that I think you are ignoring: Did the persons in the cases you described **alert the media** about their plight and did the media investigated and pointed to others that confirmed what was going on? Incidentally the main point I’m coming from is how the company dealt with her health care rights, the issue of why she was fired is not clear. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/113 "2009-04-14T16:50:08Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Well, I don’t deny it. But many employers have official policies only for window dressing, when their actual behavior is quite different. That’s true, but it’s hard to imagine how an employer could conceal a violation of a policy against specific public comments. After all, a public comment is necessarily public. > [@](#): > > Not long ago, I watched a video of a lawyer conducting a seminar that taught employers how to avoid hiring American citizens, so they could lie to the government about the necessity of hiring much cheaper immigrants. I’ll bet every one of those employers had an official policy against discrimination on the basis of national origin. There’s no question that companies discriminate and retaliate left and right. But there are also a lot of frivolous discrimination and retaliation complaints. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/114 "2009-04-14T16:52:53Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > There’s no question that companies discriminate and retaliate left and right. But there are also a lot of frivolous discrimination and retaliation complaints. This is absolutely true. The majority of litigated workers’ compensation claims are filed by people who’ve been terminated for cause and want to get back at their employers. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/115 "2009-04-14T16:55:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > He kinda has a point there. Of course, do not trust him. I explained why in this case (so far) I trust more the saleslady in this case than Brasil84. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/116 "2009-04-14T16:56:27Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Did the persons in the cases you described **alert the media** about their plight and did the media investigated and pointed to others that confirmed what was going on? Well, yes … > [@](#): > > In one case, the seemingly stellar ex-employee spent weeks badmouthing the company to anyone who would listen, including a media outlet. Some people refuse to believe they’re in the wrong, regardless of what they’ve done, and they will self-righteously proclaim their innocence to all and sundry. Some media outlets will run with a story before confirming all details – or will go with one side of the story, with the caveat “The company refused to comment.” In this (Zale’s) case, if I’m remembering it properly, the media has confirmed the woman was a top salesperson, and that she got surgery, and she was fired. That doesn’t mean it’s the end of the story. It may be – Zale’s may be completely in the wrong here. Or it may be that she was skimming, or giving unauthorized discounts to friends and family members, or she outright stole merchandise from the company. The point is, we don’t have all the data necessary to formulate an informed opinion. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/117 "2009-04-14T17:01:15Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > There’s no question that companies discriminate and retaliate left and right. But there are also a lot of frivolous discrimination and retaliation complaints. I have absolutely no faith on corporations. For a while I did some work for a major retailer and was bothered by the data in one of the reports, it seemed that I was missing something. The numbers for unemployment claims against the company and the number of denied/under review unemployment claims were identical. I checked with the resident DBA who informed me that this major retailer’s policy was to initially deny all unemployment claims, regardless of merit. The end result of this policy was that, since unemployment can only be paid while the claimant is unemployed, a significant number of unemployment claims were never paid, since by the time the review was completed many claimants had already found other work. I can’t say if this illegal, but it certainly was disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/118 "2009-04-14T17:01:44Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Of course, do not trust him. I explained why in this case (so far) I trust more the saleslady in this case than Brasil84. That could be a logical position to take, depending on your view of b84. However, when it really comes down to it, we don’t have enough information to condemn Zales right now. Sympathise with the employee, if you wish; her situation is obviously unfortunate regardless of whether her employer is screwing her. However, as Sauron rightly notes above, we don’t know anything about Zales’ side of the story yet. If this woman was violating company policy, stealing, or whatever, they would be totally justified in firing her. We only have her representation of what she was told at her termination. > [@](#): > > I checked with the resident DBA who informed me that this major retailer’s policy was to initially deny all unemployment claims, regardless of merit. > > The end result of this policy was that, since unemployment can only be paid while the claimant is unemployed, a significant number of unemployment claims were never paid, since by the time the review was completed many claimants had already found other work. > > I can’t say if this illegal, but it certainly was disgusting. That’s not an unusual policy with large employers. However, in most states, an employer has to document that the employee was terminated for cause (or was otherwise not entitled to unemployment) in order to deny an unemployment claim. They can’t just issue blanket denials. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/119 "2009-04-14T17:14:51Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > Well, yes … The issue here is that in your case you did not mention if the media that was alerted did confirm the the main points of the case or pointed to others that could confirm what was going on. > [@](#): > > Some people refuse to believe they’re in the wrong, regardless of what they’ve done, and they will self-righteously proclaim their innocence to all and sundry. Some media outlets will run with a story before confirming all details – or will go with one side of the story, with the caveat “The company refused to comment.” > > In this (Zale’s) case, if I’m remembering it properly, the media has confirmed the woman was a top salesperson, and that she got surgery, and she was fired. That doesn’t mean it’s the end of the story. It may be – Zale’s may be completely in the wrong here. Or it may be that she was skimming, or giving unauthorized discounts to friends and family members, or she outright stole merchandise from the company. The point is, we don’t have all the data necessary to formulate an informed opinion. What you are missing is that there are 2 issues, her firing and how she was treated regarding her health care needs, one issue is not clear. The other has not only the confirmation of the reporter but also, on context, the confirmation of the New York claims investigator. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749/120 "2009-04-14T17:19:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This is absolutely true. The majority of litigated workers’ compensation claims are filed by people who’ve been terminated for cause and want to get back at their employers. Cite? I used to work for a worker’s compensation law firm, and I saw quite a number of cases in which injured workers were still working for the employers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-need-time-off-for-surgery-youre-fired/492749.md?page=7)