# You queer people, knock it off!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [December 16, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137 "2004-12-16T14:24:41Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/1 "2004-12-16T14:24:41Z")
This rant was inspired by a comment that **AHunter3** made.
OK, I’m reading more stories about the rising [syphilis](http://www.washblade.com/2004/12-3/news/national/fuel.cfm) rates rising among gay men because a new generation of young gay men and older gya men who should know better are having unsafe sex. Andy Bell of Erasure just disclosed that he’s HIV±-although he was diagnosed in 1998, that’s still long past the time when he should have been wearing condoms and using safer sex precautions.
If you are having sex with a non-monogmous partner, then WEAR A CONDOM EVERY TIME! There’s just no excuse for having unsafe sex, none.
And knock it off with the Tina, too. Crystal meth is poison, end of story. If you’re using it, stop. If you’re not, don’t start. Club drugs are garbage that are dragging down our entire community.
And let’s also stop dividing each other into cliques–bears and twinks, tops and bottoms, fags and dykes. We need to find and strengthen the bonds that unite us, not the differences that divide us.
And gay men, start helping out more with lesbian health projects. They have helped us from the beginning of the plague, yet when they need help from us, such as with breast cancer drives, we don’t show up. It’s time to pitch in.
Men on the DL–if you’re a guy with a wife or girlfriend, don’t be hopping off to the baths and having unsafe sex with other men. Respect her enough to either tell her what you’re up to, or leave her. Your mate deserves respect, and you can’t have that without honesty. Remember, God invented porn to keep men from cheating.
And be nicer to gay Republicans. Although I personally loathe Dubya and all his works, the gay vote is taken for granted by the Dems and despised by the Pubs. We need to put ourselves in play and, excuse the expression, show that we can go both ways. I want the two parties to fight for our vote if we show that neither one owns us. Morever, a moderate gay Pub presence will drive the fundies into fits, and pissing them off is always good for a smile.
It’s a tough old world out there. Homophobes have the upper hand now; anti-gay hatemongering is back. So that’s why it’s all the more necessary that you all start respecting yourselves, treating each other more kindly, and stop perpetuating the negative behaviors that lend ammunition to the propaganda of our enemies. if we respect ourselves and each other, no Bible-humping bigot can stand against us.
And you whiners with the “But, Gobear, you’re painting with a wide brush–I’m not like that. You can’t say that about all gay men,” shut up and sit your punk ass down. This lecture is for the entire class; if it doesn’t apply to you, then don’t worry about it. If it DOES apply to you, then shape up!
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### Author:  [@chaoticbear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaoticbear)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/2 "2004-12-16T14:36:01Z")
Nothing useful to say, other than the fact that I was sort of whooshed by the username/title combination. Glad I read it.
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### Author:  [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/3 "2004-12-16T15:07:47Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> although he was diagnosed in 1998, that’s still long past the time when he should have been wearing condoms and using safer sex precautions.
>
> If you are having sex with a non-monogmous partner, then WEAR A CONDOM EVERY TIME! There’s just no excuse for having unsafe sex, none.
There is a lot more to safe_r_ sex than just wearing a condom. For example, don’t be going out and getting loaded where your judgement is impaired. That is like the drunk driver on the road who is wearing his seatbelt.
Today you need a fucking [manual](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safer_sex) to ensure safer sex.
The evidence of HIV does not mean the victim avoided the use of condoms.
Is it actually possible to perform fellatio satisfactorily with a condom ?
---
### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/4 "2004-12-16T15:11:56Z")
> [@grienspace](#):
>
> There is a lot more to safe_r_ sex than just wearing a condom. For example, don’t be going out and getting loaded where your judgement is impaired. That is like the drunk driver on the road who is wearing his seatbelt.
>
> Today you need a fucking [manual](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safer_sex) to ensure safer sex.
>
> The evidence of HIV does not mean the victim avoided the use of condoms.
> Is it actually possible to perform fellatio satisfactorily with a condom ?
Every study I’ve seen has shown that the risk of HIV transmission from oral is extremely low.
And no, sucking on latex is not satisfactory, which is all the more reason that one should know one’s paertner’s serostatus so that one can make informed judgements.
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### Author:  [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/5 "2004-12-16T15:20:00Z")
Nice rant, **gobear**. I hope the gay community starts to take this advice.
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### Author:  [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/6 "2004-12-16T15:29:22Z")
Anybody who doesn’t have safe sex in this day and age is a fool, unless they are in a long-term, monogamous relationship in which both partners have been tested for STDs and are clean. Even then, there’s an element of risk based on the trustworthyness of each partner.
It’s disheartening to see STDs on the rise in any arena in this day and age.
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### Author:  [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/7 "2004-12-16T15:34:41Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> And let’s also stop dividing each other into cliques–bears and twinks, tops and bottoms, fags and dykes. We need to find and strengthen the bonds that unite us, not the differences that divide us.
Bowling.
Seriously, the gay bowling league here in Saint Louis is the most thorough mixing of types I’ve ever seen. Twinks and bears, old guys and bois. Fit and fat. Butch and fey. There’s even a few straight folks on some of the teams. The only thing we need is a few more lesbian teams.
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/8 "2004-12-16T15:35:38Z")
> [@Debaser](#):
>
> Nice rant, **gobear**. I hope the gay community starts to take this advice.
Gay community, hell. I hope everyone takes his advice. What he said is not any less applicable to everyone else, he just chose to target a certain group with this one.
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### Author:  [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/9 "2004-12-16T15:37:11Z")
I’m truly surprised at the number of gay men I’ve slept with who were willing to bottom without a condom. It’s not as if they weren’t old enough to know better; maybe _half_ of all the men in their 30s who I’ve been with were keen for a bit of bareback sex. Mindboggling, really.
> [@gobear](#):
>
> It’s a tough old world out there. Homophobes have the upper hand now; anti-gay hatemongering is back. So that’s why it’s all the more necessary that you all start respecting yourselves, treating each other more kindly, and stop perpetuating the negative behaviors that lend ammunition to the propaganda of our enemies. if we respect ourselves and each other, no Bible-humping bigot can stand against us.
Come to western Europe, mate. 😉 It’s gayer here more than ever. There’s poofs everywhere on the tellie, being gay is no longer a political statement, you can (or soon) get legally hitched, Tina is quite rare, it’s all love, love, love…
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### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/10 "2004-12-16T15:39:42Z")
Great rant, and one that needed saying, **gobear**.
Can I add one small item to your list: **Stop painting on tar with a broad brush.** Joe Maninthestreet may think that it’s immoral to have sex with another guy – and respect your right to think differently, your very real love for your partner. Calling him a homophobe because of **his** moral choices, _provided he’s not trying to force them on you_, is counterproductive. Let him think what he chooses, if he is willing to treat you as his equal, entitled to the same rights as him.
When I and my fellow Episcopalians, UCC’ers, Methodists, and such, have been fighting alongside you to try to get our churches to behave like Jesus told them to, and treat you with love and respect, it’s positively disheartening to have someone say that all Christians are out to condemn and hate gays. Right – we elected Gene Robinson, and are standing our ground, even at the expense of splitting up the Anglican Communion, because we despise and ostracize gay people. Tell me another one.
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### Author:  [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/11 "2004-12-16T15:51:49Z")
> [@](#):
>
> This rant was inspired by a comment that **AHunter3** made.
I knew that as soon as I saw the title, and this thread was the topmost when I hit the “New Posts” button.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/12 "2004-12-16T15:53:54Z")
> [@Polycarp](#):
>
> Joe Maninthestreet may think that it’s immoral to have sex with another guy – and respect your right to think differently, your very real love for your partner. Calling him a homophobe because of **his** moral choices, _provided he’s not trying to force them on you_, is counterproductive. Let him think what he chooses, if he is willing to treat you as his equal, entitled to the same rights as him.
But there are two problems with that; A, people who think like that rarely are willing to treat me as an equal, and B) if someone despises me because I’m gay, then he is, by definition, a homophobe, just as someone who despises a black person for the color of his skin is a racist. His viewpoint is indefensible and contemptible.
> [@](#):
>
> When I and my fellow Episcopalians, UCC’ers, Methodists, and such, have been fighting alongside you to try to get our churches to behave like Jesus told them to, and treat you with love and respect, it’s positively disheartening to have someone say that all Christians are out to condemn and hate gays. Right – we elected Gene Robinson, and are standing our ground, even at the expense of splitting up the Anglican Communion, because we despise and ostracize gay people. Tell me another one.
I don’t believe I said anything of the sort. I applaud the efforts of liberal Christians to embrace gay co-religionists. However, there are also some Christans who use theire Bible as a manual for hate. They–Falwell, Robertson, Crouch, Phelps–are Bible-humping bigots, period. Fuck 'em.
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### Author:  [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/13 "2004-12-16T16:09:56Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> However, there are also some Christans who use their Bible as a manual for hate. They–Falwell, Robertson, Crouch, Phelps–are Bible-humping bigots, period. Fuck 'em.
As a Christian with years of religion classes taught by an Episcopal priest, I can safely say that anyone claiming to be a Christian who holds to a literal interpretation of the Old Testament – or insists that both the Old and New Testaments must be read as literal truth – has not read the New Testament carefully enough. I think some of them would be very surprised to hear how Biblical scholars read and interpret scripture. And I think Jesus is probably spinning in his – ah, wait… no, it _says here_ that… WOW! Well that’s sure good news.
Christians who don’t understand the fundamental text of our religion do just as much harm to our Fellowship as suicide bombers do to Islam, and arguably, as much harm as promiscuous unsafe gay men do for your community.
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### Author:  [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/14 "2004-12-16T16:14:04Z")
I’m just getting over a breakup, albeit amicable, but it’s put me back on the single market. Right before New Year’s Eve. (I can’t complain since it was I who did the breaking up, but it was after a definite series of unfortunate events which almost could use their own pit thread. The bastard.) So take my comments with a grain of salt.
> [@gobear](#):
>
> OK, I’m reading more stories about the rising [syphilis](http://www.washblade.com/2004/12-3/news/national/fuel.cfm) rates rising among gay men because a new generation of young gay men and older gya men who should know better are having unsafe sex. Andy Bell of Erasure just disclosed that he’s HIV±-although he was diagnosed in 1998, that’s still long past the time when he should have been wearing condoms and using safer sex precautions.
>
> If you are having sex with a non-monogmous partner, then WEAR A CONDOM EVERY TIME! There’s just no excuse for having unsafe sex, none.
>
> And knock it off with the Tina, too. Crystal meth is poison, end of story. If you’re using it, stop. If you’re not, don’t start. Club drugs are garbage that are dragging down our entire community.
I’ve never understood the PNP/let’s play raw scenes. I’ve never had anything to do with it either. That’s my preference too. Others would rather take some meth, play bareback, or have so many sex partners that they need a “take a number” system on their nightstand. That’s not my idea of fun and I want no part of it.
At the same time, these are adults who should be allowed to make their own decisions. Whereas one subsect of gays choose to do these things does not drag down our entire community. That’s like saying that Catholics are dragging down all of Christianity. Of course, this is coming from someone that doesn’t own a rainbow flag, have a subscription to Out magazine, been to pride for 6 or 7 years, and maybe goes out to a gay bar once a year. My sense of community is a vain attempt to assimilate with the greater world while still being who I am. I’d rather go to a bar because I liked the music instead of because it’s the best sausage factory in town. I’d rather hang with people with something more in common with me than our sexuality. (People say I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one… and other John Lennon b.s.).
> [@gobear](#):
>
> And let’s also stop dividing each other into cliques–bears and twinks, tops and bottoms, fags and dykes. We need to find and strengthen the bonds that unite us, not the differences that divide us.
But it’s ok for you to divide the club kids from the rest of the community? The biggest bond to unite the gay community is the one that defines it, but in the end, shouldn’t be all that important. The times have changed considerably since I came out eleven years ago. The battlefields have changed and ground has been gained. (There’s still a long way to go as well). But understanding that this community has no solid leadership and never really has. It’s too diverse for it to agree upon a representative. Some might site the HRC as being a focal point whereas another might accuse them for being divisive based on economic standings. (Their fundraising tactics usually go for the upper eschalons and ignore all of the others. Which, yes, might get funds in the door, but doesn’t work well on building a widespread community).
Also, you have to come to grips with the fact that the community is based on sex. Take away the sex from the community and there’s no commonality. The cliques are there based on a more definitive attraction points. Some people are bear chasers, some are flamers, some are dykes on bikes, some are accountants for insurance companies. The cliques are catalysts to finding people that share some of the same interests. It facilitates their desires in a more direct way. Why begrudge them of that? (I’ve never heard of “top” or “bottom” cliques, but it’s giving me a very strange ‘Sadie-Hawkins Dance’ vision in my head).
> [@gobear](#):
>
> Men on the DL–if you’re a guy with a wife or girlfriend, don’t be hopping off to the baths and having unsafe sex with other men. Respect her enough to either tell her what you’re up to, or leave her. Your mate deserves respect, and you can’t have that without honesty. Remember, God invented porn to keep men from cheating.
I totally agree with you there and wanted to lump in closet cases as well. I never understood the rationale of not coming out to your close friends and family because they might disown you and you don’t want to lose their love. Really, I don’t see how you could think a person who cares about who would dump you like a hot potato if you came out, would make a healthy relationship. Nothing sadder than someone who feels that they have to live a double life.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/15 "2004-12-16T16:23:36Z")
> [@stpauler](#):
>
> At the same time, these are adults who should be allowed to make their own decisions. Whereas one subsect of gays choose to do these things does not drag down our entire community. That’s like saying that Catholics are dragging down all of Christianity.
Apples, meet oranges. PNP and raw sex are BAD–they are not legitimate choices to make, they are destructive acts.
> [@](#):
>
> But it’s ok for you to divide the club kids from the rest of the community?
I said club _drugs_, not club kids. I’m not into dancing to 12 minute Blackeyed Peas remixes, but if people enjoy it, good for them. My objection is to K-holes, Tina, and getting high and barebacking. Those are all negative choices.
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### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/16 "2004-12-16T16:26:07Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> But there are two problems with that; A, people who think like that rarely are willing to treat me as an equal, and B) if someone despises me because I’m gay, then he is, by definition, a homophobe, just as someone who despises a black person for the color of his skin is a racist. His viewpoint is indefensible and contemptible.
I’ve seen a fair number of people, in my own experience, who believe what I said – in their opinion, it’s wrong, but they’re not prepared to force their opinion on others. Closet Libertarians, perhaps? 😉 Anyway, it’s how one behaves towards another, not what one chooses to do with one’s own life, that strikes me as the criterion. And I think perhaps some sort of reaching out to acknowledge that silent group that holds you to be entitled to make your own moral judgments, to live your life free from whatever he or she may think right for you, that may turn the tide.
Everybody deals with their own problems – and sees others making improper demands on them. People who are not gay are judged by the Falwells – and the Signoriles – of this world to be lacking in their own standards. I am who I am – a man who has been committed to the same woman for 40 years now – almost 30 of them in a stable and rewarding marriage – but who fell in love with a boy just shy of his 17th birthday about 15 years back, and who has been the closest friend that young man has, and strongly supportive of his wife and marriage, because it’s what makes **him** happy – and what makes him happy, makes me happy. If anybody doesn’t like that, that’s **their** problem, not mine. And the exact same thing is what I expect of my fellow man with regard to you and your moral choices – if you and your mysterious partner (whom I’ve never met) are happy with each other and seeking to form a permanent legally-recognized relationship, you deserve our support, not our judgment – _regardless_ of how we may feel about your sex life. (Me, I have no problems with it – but even if I did, supporting your claim to equal rights, not my personal moral evaluation, should be the measure of how you react to me.)
Yeah, if anyone **despises** you, he’s a homophobe (or some other form of -phobe; you could be black or overweight or handicapped and the object of his condemnation for some other reason than gayness). But I specifically set up a category of people, whom I believe to be fairly common, who do **not** despise you, simply have different views on something that is important to you and not to them, and are prepared to defend your right to do something they would not.
> [@](#):
>
> I don’t believe I said anything of the sort. I applaud the efforts of liberal Christians to embrace gay co-religionists. However, there are also some Christans who use theire Bible as a manual for hate. They–Falwell, Robertson, Crouch, Phelps–are Bible-humping bigots, period. Fuck 'em.
As you said in the OP, if it doesn’t include you, it wasn’t directed at you. I’ve seen a lot of tarring-with-the-broad-brush around, and it’s a rant that _ **I** _ needed to make. Falwell and Co. don’t speak for Episcopalians like me and **Siege** and **Baker** , or Methodists like **Jodi** , or a few dozen other sincere Christians who believe you deserve our love, respect, and acceptance as much as anyone else, any more than the Duisberg hypothesis/barebacking advocates speak for you or **Otto**. And we’d appreciate not being grouped with them – we’re doing what Jesus said about caring about you; what other idiots may decide to rewrite the Bible to say about despising and rejecting you, is something we’re trying to combat as much as you are.
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### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/17 "2004-12-16T16:27:25Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> But there are two problems with that; A, people who think like that rarely are willing to treat me as an equal, and B) if someone despises me because I’m gay, then he is, by definition, a homophobe, just as someone who despises a black person for the color of his skin is a racist. His viewpoint is indefensible and contemptible.
Well, as far as “A” goes, you might be right.
But with “B” i’m not so sure. Not because what you say i untrue, but because it doesn’t quite reflect what **Polycarp** was saying. He said that someone “may think that it’s immoral to have sex with another guy,” and you said “if someone despises me because I’m gay.” These aren’t quite the same thing. It is possible to believe that something you do is immoral without despising you for it as a human being.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/18 "2004-12-16T16:31:59Z")
> [@mhendo](#):
>
> It is possible to believe that something you do is immoral without despising you for it as a human being.
Possible, maybe. But not bloody likely with the general run of humanity. And thinking that being gay is immoral is not a legitimate point of view, any more than thinking black people are cursed by God (sons of Ham, you know). To quote Aunt Eller,
> [@](#):
>
> I don’t say I’m no better than anybody else,
> But I’ll be damned if I ain’t jist as good!
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### Author:  [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/19 "2004-12-16T16:48:42Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> Apples, meet oranges. PNP and raw sex are BAD–they are not legitimate choices to make, they are destructive acts.
>
> I said club _drugs_, not club kids. I’m not into dancing to 12 minute Blackeyed Peas remixes, but if people enjoy it, good for them. My objection is to K-holes, Tina, and getting high and barebacking. Those are all negative choices.
I’m sure that some high and mighty people might think that being gay is not a legitimate choice to make and is a destructive act. (Falwell blaming 9/11 on gays is a good example of that).
Sure, bb’ing, PnP, et al are choices with the outcome usually following the negative. But they’re also consensual crimes/actions. I guess I have a laissez-faire attitude to people doing whatever they want with their bodies as long as it _doesn’t affect me_. If someone wants to be a piggy bottom with a bb top taking tina and have their closest friends take turns. Go ahead. Knock yourself out. You know the consequences of your actions and since it only affects the parties involved and consenting to those things, I don’t see how I should give a flying fuck. Let 'em do what makes 'em happy. Isn’t the government sticking their bureaucratic and homophobic noses into the LGBT community enough without you playing moral arbiter too?
I think where we disagree is that I’m not trying to stuff everyone under a big gay umbrella and telling them to play nicely. I’m no more representitive of the gay community than Jeffery Dahmer was. But we’re both gay. It’s silly that we have to be gay first and ourselves second that leads to this problem.
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### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2004, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/20 "2004-12-16T17:55:51Z")
PnP? bb? K-hole?
> [@](#):
>
> Homophobes have the upper hand now; anti-gay hatemongering is back.
Relative to when? A couple years ago? Perhaps.
Ten years ago or more? I’d say we are far more accepting than any time ten years ago or more, from my uninformed opinion.
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