# You queer people, knock it off! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 16, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137 "2004-12-16T14:24:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/41 "2004-12-16T23:29:54Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And let’s also stop dividing each other into cliques I hate the sort of people who do that. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/42 "2004-12-16T23:42:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I hate the sort of people who do that. Hee, hee. I get it. By the way, in case you didn’t check my link above, it’s a link to another thread that talks about a possible cure for HIV. Good news indeed.l ---
**Author:** ![kevja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/43 "2004-12-16T23:49:04Z")
If you haven’t already, why don’t you post your rant on a predominantly gay message board? Or was the whole thing a woosh, and I just didn’t get it? ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/44 "2004-12-17T00:17:52Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > But there are two problems with that; A, people who think like that rarely are willing to treat me as an equal, and B) if someone despises me because I’m gay, then he is, by definition, a homophobe, just as someone who despises a black person for the color of his skin is a racist. His viewpoint is indefensible and contemptible. The implication from **Polycarp** ’s post is that there is a spectrum that leads to true acceptance. You’re seeing things as black and white, in this regard, but most folks aren’t like that. Tolerance generally precedes true acceptance, save with the extremely enlightened. When I was younger, I didn’t know\* any gay people. It was okay to joke about them or say hurtful things. Later, when I met some openly gay folks, I shifted to “whatever, s/he seems okay… whatever they practice in the privacy of their own home is alright, but I really don’t want to see that”. Then came, “Wow, Kevin/Carlos/Bill is such a great guy. All gay people must be fantastic.” Now, many years later, I’ve met a couple of gay folks who were, well, assholes. So gay people are just people who happen to be gay. Some things we have in common, other stuff not as much. It varies a lot by the individual. That didn’t happen in a day. Was I a homophobe in 1975? Maybe, depending on your definition. I was probably _afraid_ of gay men, in a way that was unwarranted, but I never really _hated_ anyone for their sexuality. But after I learned more that went away. Hopefully it’s a shorter journey for most people these days, but don’t expect a switch to just flip off or on. Heck, from what I’ve read of many people’s experiences here, it’s not exactly a “switch” sort of experience for most gay people, either. Cut us a little slack and most intelligent people will come around to a better understanding. And eventually it will be the norm. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/45 "2004-12-17T02:44:51Z")
> [@kevja](#): > > If you haven’t already, why don’t you post your rant on a predominantly gay message board? Um, the SDMB _isn’t_? …AWKWARD!.. So, what’d y’all think of the game last night, eh? You see the tits on that cheerleader? **Damn!** ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/46 "2004-12-17T03:32:24Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Well, for one thing, I spelled “opportunistic” correctly. Second, “opportunistic infection” is the term used for diseases that afflict an HIV+ person that would be shrugged off by a healthy immune system. > > As I said earlier, AIDS is not separate form HIV infection, it’s just the end stage of the same illness. Even though a person can be asymptomatic for years, HIV is not dormant, but working to undermine the immune system. Now you’re being a dick. What gives. I know exactly what you said earlier, and I was even trying to explain it so that **Otto** would understand what you were saying. He seemed to have misunderstood you. Thanks for the Spell Check, though, asshole. Next time I won’t bother trying to help you out. > [@](#): > > So gobear was saying that there is 5-10 years between the time a person is infected with HIV, to the time he infected with some disease that an otherwise strong immune system would have fought off. > [@](#): > > Second, “opportunistic infection” is the term used for diseases that afflict an HIV+ person that would be shrugged off by a healthy immune system. Sound pretty fucking similar to me. I don’t get what your problem is… ---
**Author:** ![kevja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/47 "2004-12-17T03:41:46Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > Um, the SDMB _isn’t_? > …AWKWARD!.. > So, what’d y’all think of the game last night, eh? You see the tits on that cheerleader? **Damn!** Yeah, I know there is a lot of gay people on the board. But as a gay man myself, I’m baffled by the rant. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/48 "2004-12-17T03:45:15Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I’m very tired of gay men acting as if Ronald Reagan or George Bush infected them with HIV… Hee hee hee… Not that there’s anything wrong with that. I thought your OP was awesome, **gobear**. I’m not gay, so I probably don’t count, but who cares? I have a friend who has been HIV+ since _1985_ and has spent the last 19 years trying to keep himself alive and well any way he can. It pisses me off when I see guys who are perfectly willing to throw away their lives to get laid. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/49 "2004-12-17T04:23:50Z")
I didn’t intend to offend you, **Bear Nenno** , and I apologize. It’s just that when I read, "Someone gets infected with HIV. Then, several years down the road, he gets an “oppurtunistic infection” (as gobear puts it). It sounded to me like you were taking the piss. I’m sorry for the misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/50 "2004-12-17T05:25:55Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I didn’t intend to offend you, **Bear Nenno** , and I apologize. It’s just that when I read, "Someone gets infected with HIV. Then, several years down the road, he gets an “oppurtunistic infection” (as gobear puts it). It sounded to me like you were taking the piss. I’m sorry for the misunderstanding. No worries. I was just trying to make it clear to **Otto** that you both knew your stuff, he just wasn’t getting what you were saying. Keep up the good fight! ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/51 "2004-12-17T05:49:14Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > The implication from **Polycarp** ’s post is that there is a spectrum that leads to true acceptance. You’re seeing things as black and white, in this regard, but most folks aren’t like that. Tolerance generally precedes true acceptance, save with the extremely enlightened…\… Hopefully it’s a shorter journey for most people these days, but don’t expect a switch to just flip off or on. Heck, from what I’ve read of many people’s experiences here, it’s not exactly a “switch” sort of experience for most gay people, either. Cut us a little slack and most intelligent people will come around to a better understanding. And eventually it will be the norm. Kudos to **gobear** for the substance of the rant, but equal respect to **Polycarp** and **ShibbOleth** for their gentle caveats. The tacitly condoned prejudice against gays is disgraceful by any measure. Comparisons are probably pretty useless because no matter the outcome, the _justifications_ for dismissing and/or demonizing other human beings always end up being personal. I can’t remotely claim any wisdom or insight about how gays could or should handle anything. I don’t know whether there is or _can_ be “A Gay Community.” Most of the communities I’ve brushed against have been notable more for their bickering than unity of vision or purpose. I’m not belittling the noble intent at all, just wondering whether it’s akin to herding cats. Referent to that, hearts and minds are tricky things. Any X group will probably, ultimately be judged by its totality, given even a reasonable fair chance. X group doesn’t _have_ to be just-so to be seen and recognized. Out-groupers will muddle along at their own rate, depending on their own personal capacities. Some–maybe many–may start out ambivalent or confused at best about group X, but at least they’re still receptive. Group X doesn’t _have_ to be uniformly respectable, responsible, etc. But outsiders don’t have to be bone-deep partisans for Group X either. Willingness to learn is a huge thing. I’m tired and making a complete hash of this. Gays don’t have to be uber unified and responsible. Straights who need time and fair exposure to learn aren’t bigots. It will happen. It _is_ happening. As a child I saw segregated drinking fountains, swimming pools and a black woman headlining a TV sitcom was controversial. All that CHANGED because ordinary people made it change, one confused person after another. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/52 "2004-12-17T06:02:57Z")
Starting to [sound like Larry Kramer these days](http://www.hivforumnyc.org/lk.php), are we, **gobear**? 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/53 "2004-12-17T14:27:37Z")
> [@Esprix](#): > > Starting to [sound like Larry Kramer these days](http://www.hivforumnyc.org/lk.php), are we, **gobear**? 😉 > > Esprix He can get a touch hysterical, but Larry is often right on the money: > [@](#): > > Grow up. Behave responsibly. Fight for your rights. Take care of yourself and each other. These are the answers. It takes courage to live. Are you living? Not so I can see it. Gay people are all but invisible to me now. I wish you weren’t. But you are. And I look real hard. Gay people have to start acting responsibly, or perish. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/54 "2004-12-17T14:44:02Z")
> [@Esprix](#): > > Starting to [sound like Larry Kramer these days](http://www.hivforumnyc.org/lk.php), are we, **gobear**? 😉 > > Esprix The Village Voice has an interesting [interview with him](http://www1.villagevoice.com/issues/0450/solomon.php). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/55 "2004-12-17T16:22:32Z")
What **Airman Doors, USAF** said. I took a picture of a grafitti in San Francisco that says (quoting from the top of my head): “Your people? Your people? When will you realize we’re all the same people?” And anybody of any sexual orientation who thinks that “AIDS and unwanted pregnancies only happen to ‘others’” or that “AIDS is the only worrisome STD left” needs a very cold shower. Or just a nice dunk into the Arctic Ocean, you get to play with the polar bears! **gobear** , do you mind if I hand your post around? 🙂 Figure not, but I believe in asking. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/56 "2004-12-17T16:32:14Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > What **Airman Doors, USAF** said. > **gobear** , do you mind if I hand your post around? 🙂 Figure not, but I believe in asking. Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/57 "2004-12-17T18:09:56Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Gay community, hell. I hope everyone takes his advice. What he said is not any less applicable to everyone else, he just chose to target a certain group with this one. I think this is a bit more profound than it looks at first. Each person is a unique individual. Some of us have more in common with some others than with, well, other others 🙂 – sheesh, you’d think I’d have a better way of expressing that! – but we’re all unique individuals. And what **gobear** said in his OP goes for **all** of us, _ceteris paribus_, not merely for those with Same-Sex Attraction. John Donne said it best, all those years ago: > [@Donne](#): > > No man is an island, entire of itself. > Every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. > If a clod be washed away by the sea, > Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, > as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were. > Any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; > and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls – > it tolls for thee. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/58 "2004-12-17T20:22:26Z")
This is the first I heard the news about Andy Bell. Damn shame. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/59 "2004-12-17T20:42:11Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And anybody of any sexual orientation who thinks that “AIDS and unwanted pregnancies only happen to ‘others’” or that “AIDS is the only worrisome STD left” needs a very cold shower. Or just a nice dunk into the Arctic Ocean, you get to play with the polar bears! It is well-nigh impossible for an unwanted pregnancy to happen to me. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137/60 "2004-12-17T23:12:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It is well-nigh impossible for an unwanted pregnancy to happen to me. Hey, me too! Yet I still hate the thought of its happening to anyone else. For that matter, it’s extremely unlikely that I’m going to get addicted to crystal meth or use amyl nitrate, or get syphilis, or contract HIV. I still hate to see it happening, especially when people know how to prevent it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-queer-people-knock-it-off/280137.md?page=2)