# you say jayn, i say jine...
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [September 30, 2000, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154 "2000-09-30T17:58:49Z")
**Posts on this page:** 14
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2000, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154/1 "2000-09-30T17:58:49Z")
Let’s call the whole thing off.
I gotta bet with my boss. Is the word “Jain,” as in a follower of Jainism, the Indian religion, pronounced with a long a or a long i?
Long i, sez I.
---
### Author:  [@scratch1300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch1300)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2000, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154/2 "2000-09-30T18:08:23Z")
No idea, though I heard that Sikh was supposed to be pronounced “sick”, but it seems unappetizing to anglophones so we call it “seek”.
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2000, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154/3 "2000-09-30T22:30:15Z")
From [Merriam-Webster Online](http://www.m-w.com/):
> [@](#):
>
> Main Entry: **Jain**
> Pronunciation: 'jIn
> Variant(s): or **Jai·na** /'jI-n&/
> Function: _noun_
> Etymology: Hindi _Jain_, from Sanskrit _Jaina_
> Date: 1805
> : an adherent of Jainism
Lots o’ stuf in them dictionaries.
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2000, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154/4 "2000-09-30T22:34:51Z")
Of course, even with a dictionary, one should proof before posting, otherwise _stuff_ comes out wrong.
---
### Author:  [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2000, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154/5 "2000-10-01T00:01:34Z")
Yup. Problem is, OED says “jayn,” while several others say “jine.” The Boss claims that OED is the last word. BS, I reply, as I’ve been in classes with native Hindi speakers who say “jine.” She retorts that we’re talking about an English transliteration of a word from Sanskrit. I rejoin that we’re talking about a Sanskrit word that’s been picked up, possibly mauled by the Imperialist Anglos, and improperly pronounced for the last 195 years.
We’re librarians (well, SHE is). We’ve heard about dictionaries before. In this case, the dictionaries are unclear.
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2000, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154/6 "2000-10-01T02:12:56Z")
Well, at this point, I’d guess you’re not talking about how it should be pronounced in India, at all, but about which pronunciation in English is most widespread–and that may require a decision to allow/disallow Brit, Yank, (Oz, South African, Canadian, Kiwi, etc.).
The Merriam-Webster, the American Heritage, and an ancient Webster Universal that I have all say _jine_ while the OED, as you noted, says _jane_. I don’t have access to a Random House dictionary, but it appears that the division is national.
There is another possibility, of course, (although your boss may consider it heresy): The OED may need to be updated. (Not to change _jane_ to _jine_, but to include the U.S. pronunciation.) My copy of the OED is the 1919 edition and has only a single pronunciation. Does the revised edition not have an alternative pronunciation? If so, I would submit that you ought to notify them that there is ample evidence that they ought to put in a second pronunciation. (If you are using the 1919 edition, then your boss should be required to defer judgment until you can find the revised edition.)
---
### Author:  [@Yeah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeah)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2000, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154/7 "2000-10-01T03:28:22Z")
In Oz, even it they tried to say “jayn” it would come out “jine.”
---
### Author:  [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2000, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154/8 "2000-10-01T03:52:45Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by tomndebb \*
> **My copy of the OED is the 1919 edition and has only a single pronunciation. Does the revised edition not have an alternative pronunciation?**
My copy of **The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary** (1993) has two pronunciations: first **jine** and then **jane**. The OED rarely concerns itself with North American pronunciations, and when it does, it so indicates it. The guide says “The pronunciations shown are those which can safely be regarded as allowable in British English at the present time…”
---
### Author:  [@Wendolynne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendolynne)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2000, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154/9 "2000-10-01T04:27:21Z")
Okay, the language is named after them, so they have some justification for their audacious attitude that they know how everything should be pronounced. But they can take it to extremes. They insist on renaming Wilhelm to William, for example. Once I was talking about a country in northern Africa, and I was corrected - “you mean ‘maracko’” - “People from Morocco say ‘Morocco’” I reply, with o’s round as can be.
The right answer in my mind is - Whatever the Jain call themselves.
---
### Author:  [@Tigress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigress)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2000, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154/10 "2000-10-01T14:36:29Z")
Well, I’ve always said “jayn.” I just consulted my parents (we’re from India), and they say “jayn.” My mother also added that all of our Jain friends pronounce it “jayn.” Hope this clears it up for you.
---
### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2000, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154/11 "2000-10-01T19:50:36Z")
The Sanskrit word _jaina_ from which the Hindi/English term _Jain_ comes is pronounced with a long “i” (that is, what English calls a long “i”) as in “mine”. So that’s the etymologically correct pronunciation. However, if lots of people have been influenced by the English spelling to pronounce it as if it rhymed with “pain” and “rain”, I see no point in trying to talk them out of it. Both seem to be accepted pronunciations at this point (even Indians, even Jain Indians, don’t have a consensus on this one).
_Sikh,_ by the way, is from Sanskrit _'si.sya,_ which has a short “i”, but the Sanskrit short “i” is more “ee-y” than our English short “i” as in “sick” or “bit”. So no, “sick” is not as good an approximation as “seek”, but ideally you should shoot for a sound sort of in between them. A short “seek”, say. (But there are no short Sikhs, it seems. Oh, shut up, Kimstu.)
---
### Author:  [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2000, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154/12 "2000-10-02T21:44:05Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by black455 \*
> \*\*Yup. Problem is, OED says “jayn,” while several others say “jine.” The Boss claims that OED is the last word. BS, I reply, as I’ve been in classes with native Hindi speakers who say “jine.” She retorts that we’re talking about an English transliteration of a word from Sanskrit. I rejoin that we’re talking about a Sanskrit word that’s been picked up, possibly mauled by the Imperialist Anglos, and improperly pronounced for the last 195 years.
>
> We’re librarians (well, SHE is). We’ve heard about dictionaries before. In this case, the dictionaries are unclear. \*\*
Yeah, and the OED probably gives the pronunciation of
Nicaragua as "Nick-uh-rag-yew-uh, but that doesn’t mean it’s
right. Pronouncers of Standard British (such as BBC announcers and the like) are notorious for completely Anglicising foreign names.
---
### Author:  [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2000, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154/13 "2000-10-19T15:53:04Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by scratch1300 \*
> \*\*No idea, though I heard that Sikh was supposed to be pronounced “sick”, but it seems unappetizing to anglophones so we call it “seek”. \*\*
Kind of like the way we say “FYOOSHIA” for _fuchsia_.
It really should be FOOKSIA, but presumably that reminds people of the word _f_\*\*\*.
---
### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2000, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-say-jayn-i-say-jine/35154/14 "2000-10-20T01:08:09Z")
The diphthong _ai_ in Sanskrit, Hindi, and other Indian languages has a variety of pronunciations. That’s part of the reason you guys are having such a hard time deciding how to pronounce it.
The pronunciation in India really depends on what area you come from. Many Indians pronounce it like the English a as in apple. So _Jain_ would be pronounced “Jan” as in “Jan Brady.” I know that sounds odd, but that pronunciation of “ai” actually is widespread in India.
Another widespread pronunciation for _ai_ is a diphthong we don’t have in English. The first part of it is a central or low schwa-like vowel, like the u in but. Followed by the -y offglide.
The “English long i” sound is really a diphthong of the long /a:/ as in father, followed by the -y offglide. So the Indian “ai” is like that except the first part is much shorter, like a schwa. The Indian short “a” is pronounced like English short “u”, so that Hindi _sab_ is pronounced “sub.” So just use that sound followed by the -y glide.