# You Subhuman Savages (Iraq Rant Ahead) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055 "2004-04-08T23:23:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/141 "2004-04-15T16:24:15Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Wow. Just Wow. Not the kidnappings, either-the OP. > > Lord this is getting tiring-Go back and look at Iraq and what we’ve done to their country in the last 10 years. Examine the dead. View the government that we are trying to cram down their throats, and how it cannot but fail. Imagine how you’d feel if the president of another country invaded your country just to win a re-election bid. > > Then come back and tell me how you’d feel. Two wrongs doesn’t make a right. These hostages aren’t responsible in any way for whatever wrongdoing commited in Irak. These wrongdoings might explain why there are para-military groups engaged in such hostage takings, they can even justify shooting at soldiers, at “civilian” security personnels, perhaps even at some contractors who are wilingly trying to make some profit out of the situation, but I can see no way it could justify kidnapping/killing people who volunteered to work in hospitals or such things. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/142 "2004-04-15T16:30:18Z")
> [@elfbabe](#): > > Sadly, the human species is not yet a club to which we can revoke membership. These people are as human as anyone else, with desires, fears, and motivations like the rest of us. In different circumstances, they would have probably have done just fine as normal members of a normal society. Living, working, having a family. > > Honestly, I think that’s a lot scarier. This kind of thoughts often cross my mind, and sometimes I even look at a neighbor, passer-by, etc… and wonder : “What if…” Scarry, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/143 "2004-04-15T16:34:51Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > Can we say the same for the criminals , pedophiles and murderers that we read about in the local papers? I’m not sure it’s the same, since in some circumstances, there are not merely individual, but whole parts of the society which turns overnight from ordinary citizens into sadistic slaughterers (see the Rwanda, for instance). ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/144 "2004-04-15T17:00:02Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Even if you want to call the Blackwater guards military targets, these people aren’t. Do you say the same for the population of Iraq? Or are ambulance drivers military targets? [This](http://www.empirenotes.org/) is the blog of Rahul Mahajan, a man who is currently in Iraq, documenting what’s going on there. Scroll down to the 14 April 11:45 AM entry and look at the photographs. Two bullets, and only two bullets, clearly aimed at the driver’s head. His job was to provide aid and assistance to the wounded, yet he was obviously treated as a military target by US forces. Now look at the 13 Apr 10:50 AM entry, immediately below it. The Abu Hanifa mosque was being used as a collection center for food relief donations, yet the American forces had no compunction about spoiling three tons of food, and desecrating the mosque, in a purported search for smuggled weaponry. All they found were three Kalashnikovs kept on the grounds for security purposes. If the occupation forces continue to treat everything they run across as a military target, they shouldn’t decry their opponents for doing the same thing. Bush may have declared an end to the hostilities earlier this year, but the war clearly hasn’t ended. I am saddened by the death of Mr. Quattrocchi, but such things are an unavoidable cost of war. And that is exactly what the coalition troops and the Iraqi people are fighting. ---
**Author:** ![swami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@swami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swami)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/145 "2004-04-15T17:03:28Z")
**ralph124c** you truly are an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/146 "2004-04-15T18:35:53Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > If the occupation forces continue to treat everything they run across as a military target, they shouldn’t decry their opponents for doing the same thing. Bush may have declared an end to the hostilities earlier this year, but the war clearly hasn’t ended. I am saddened by the death of Mr. Quattrocchi, but such things are an unavoidable cost of war. And that is exactly what the coalition troops and the Iraqi people are fighting. Although it keeps getting said around here, apparently most people in the world still haven’t figured it out: If all you’re carrying is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. The USA has the most powerful military the world has ever seen (well, since the sinking of Atlantis, anyways), and can’t be defeated by any other in the world. So, of COURSE the military is the solution to everything. -Joe, just joking about Atlantis ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/147 "2004-04-15T19:35:27Z")
**Olentzero** That would be the same Rahul Mahajan who said: “United for peace and Justice is a very broad organization. The core organizers come from many different backgrounds – leftist, anarchist, liberal. But there are also over 600 organizations around the country, mostly grassroots groups, that are members of UFPJ. They are a slice of America – mostly white and middle-class, **unfortunately** , but covering a very broad left-of-center political spectrum.” _bolding mine_ [[http://www.islam-online.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=wN1z0s](http://www.islam-online.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=wN1z0s)] Correct? The same Rahul Mahajan that urges us to buy his books, the same Rahul Mahajan who ran for the Greens, but wasn’t chosen, the same Rahul Mahajan who writes for the India Times and apparently, for Islam Online, correct? Forgive me for not taking his pic of an ambulance-window [with no notable wounded] seriously. **swami** Brilliant contribution. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Clear\_Air\_Turbulence](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Clear\_Air\_Turbulence](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clear_Air_Turbulence)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/148 "2004-04-15T20:06:42Z")
What I don’t get is how people can say that burning a few innocent civilians alive in an attempt to turn foreign opinion against the occupation of your homeland can be wrong, when they see nothing wrong with us burning hundreds of innocent civilians alive in an attempt to occupy a foreign nation. Their tactics actually seem more humane - they are trying to get the most effect out of a few killings, and if they continue to do this they have a good chance of succeeding at their goal, which is to get us to leave them alone. They are making sure that the killings are getting as much public exposure as possible. We do everything we can to make sure the hundreds we burn to death go unreported. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/149 "2004-04-15T20:08:46Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Three Russian and five Ukranians had been kidnapped and released, as has \*\* a French journalist \*\*. Four US contract employees are missing, with one, a truck driver named Thomas Hamill, known to be abducted. > > […] > Even if you want to call the Blackwater guards military targets, these people aren’t. They’re journalists, diplomats, and charity workers. As for the french journalist, since I read a detailled account about his abduction : -He was present in a combat zone (which in itself isn’t surprising for a journalist), and eventually find himself alone, caught in cross-fires. So, it’s not like they were deliberatly searching a journalist to abduct somewhere. -After being captured (actually he accepted to get in a police-like looking car, since despite him being warry, he thought he was going to be killed by the cross fire if he stayed there), he was actually thoroughly interrogated, the interrogatory being led by someone who seemed (to the journalist) accustomed to this kind of thing (so I would suspect a former police/secret police/military officer). He was apparently suspected of actually being a spy working for the US and not an actual journalist (they would tell him that the US used supposed civilians for this purpose). The interrogatory lasted apparently for quite a long time until they were satisfied with his responses. So, it seems that he wasn’t caught as a potential hostage, but as a potential spy in a war zone and treated as such. Which is, IMO, entirely different. However, some Irakis (not the people detaining him, but people who wandered in for one reason or another) did want to shot him. An Iraki cleric who was present would have prevented it by saying that they would be criminal, sinners, etc…if they did so. ---
**Author:** ![Clear\_Air\_Turbulence](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Clear\_Air\_Turbulence](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clear_Air_Turbulence)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/150 "2004-04-15T20:34:29Z")
Another thing…I’ve seen some people mention that the tactic of kidnapping and killing foreigners has the negative result of making people think the Iraqis to be ‘subhuman savages’. I think this is exactly what they want. How are we justifying our current occupation of Iraq? We say the Iraqi people deserve to live in a free country, that they needed rescuing from a brutal regime. They WANT the world to say ‘Why bother?’, because when the good of the Iraqi people is not a factor, we have no legitimate reason to be there. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/151 "2004-04-15T20:43:24Z")
hehehehe, Good one, **Clear Air Turbulence** Thanks for the laughs. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![swami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@swami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swami)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/152 "2004-04-15T20:46:55Z")
> [@gum](#): > > **swami** Brilliant contribution. Thanks. No, no, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/153 "2004-04-15T20:52:45Z")
You’re very welcome, dear. (_|_) ---
**Author:** ![swami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@swami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swami)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/154 "2004-04-15T21:06:03Z")
Should be more red… _Smack_ _Smack_ _Smack_ ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/155 "2004-04-15T23:26:35Z")
[QUOTE=gobearEvery option we have is a wrong one, and we have to choose the least wrong in a very confusing situation.[/QUOTE] You know, call me clairvoyant or something, but it was pretty obvious what type of shitstorm invading Iraq would bring. Many people, myself included, saw it turning out pretty much exactly how it has. Anyone who thought these people would welcome us as liberators should be considered a fool of the highest magnitude. Another pretty obvious prediction is to throw out this June 30th bullshit. Any power transfer will be solely for appearances, but I think things will be so fucked up, they won’t even try, they’ll just come up with some bullshit spin. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055/156 "2004-04-15T23:28:38Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Every option we have is a wrong one, and we have to choose the least wrong in a very confusing situation. You know, call me clairvoyant or something, but it was pretty obvious what type of shitstorm invading Iraq would bring. Many people, myself included, saw it turning out pretty much exactly how it has. Anyone who thought these people would welcome us as liberators should be considered a fool of the highest magnitude. Another pretty obvious prediction is to throw out this June 30th bullshit. Any power transfer will be solely for appearances, but I think things will be so fucked up, they won’t even try, they’ll just come up with some bullshit spin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-subhuman-savages-iraq-rant-ahead/239055.md?page=7)