# You think the US has looting problems in Iraq? The UN can't even police itself. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033 "2003-05-04T16:08:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/61 "2003-05-05T13:33:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*No, Sailor. No one agrees with the straw man you are presenting as December’s argument. So what? \*\* Ok, maybe I misunderstood the OP. Please explain to me how _you_ interpret this: > [@](#): > > You think the US has looting problems in Iraq? The UN can’t even police itself. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/62 "2003-05-05T13:34:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*No, Sailor. No one agrees with the straw man you are presenting as December’s argument. So what? \*\* Although clear analysis is not your strong point, what pray tell, given december’s own argumentation above, do you think his fucking point is then, Lib? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/63 "2003-05-05T13:37:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*No, Sailor. No one agrees with the straw man you are presenting as December’s argument. So what? \*\* Could you help me to understand what his argument is? I’m still not clear. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/64 "2003-05-05T13:40:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*This is like Bizarro Stormfront, where a conservative may speak so long as he frames his argument in a manner acceptable to the predominance of liberals. Doubtless, all concerned will deny the legitimacy of my perception, but nevertheless, it’s what I perceive. \*\* Me too. 😃 A _zealot?_ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/65 "2003-05-05T13:45:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\*Me too. 😃 A _zealot?_ \*\* No, you’re simply incredibly dense if that Chalabi discussion is any yardstick. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/66 "2003-05-05T13:51:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\*Although clear analysis is not your strong point, what pray tell, given december’s own argumentation above, do you think his fucking point is then, Lib? \*\* My points are[ul][_] to deplore the incident. [_]to laugh, since it was the opposite of civility and peace – values the UN is supposed to represent. To observe that the UN isn’t as good at it’s ought to be at certain tasks.[/ul] This incident is minor, but so are lots of threads here in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/67 "2003-05-05T13:52:31Z")
I am waiting for Lib to tell us in a few words what exactly it is he believes the thread is about and how he would interpret > [@](#): > > You think the US has looting problems in Iraq? The UN can’t even police itself. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/68 "2003-05-05T13:53:37Z")
In other words a cheap and stupid swipe at the UN intended to cast aspersion on it and connect up with your typical prejudices. Sailor then was spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/69 "2003-05-05T13:55:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\*No, you’re simply incredibly dense if that Chalabi discussion is any yardstick. \*\* Not sure whether to be insulted or honored, if that discussion is any yardstick. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/70 "2003-05-05T13:59:02Z")
[QUOTE] _Originally posted by december \* My points are[ul][li] to deplore the incident. [_]to laugh, since it was the opposite of civility and peace – values the UN is supposed to represent. To observe that the UN isn’t as good at it’s ought to be at certain tasks.[/ul] This incident is minor, but so are lots of threads here in the Pit. [/li][/QUOTE] december, you _are_ an idiot. The UN is not as good as it ought to be at certain tasks? Like organizing a cafeteria when the employees go on strike? Is that what the UN is supposed to be good at? And how would you justify the USA organizing elections in another country after the last presidential fiasco? Please, give us your take on that or explain why that is not relevant to the US organizing elections elsewhere. This is just surreal. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/71 "2003-05-05T14:05:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **I understand what you’re saying. But as an outsider who is neither liberal nor conservative, what I see is that someone brought up a rather surprising example of documented incivility. And now the topic is not about that, but about the character of the person who brought it up. Worse, it is morphing into _how_ the person should have brought it up — as though there is a right way and a wrong way, i.e., a way that will not offend and a way that will.** This is not about offense per se. But **december** has a history of misrepresenting things. Of twisting facts. Of presenting pure hyperbole as fact. And mostly, a history of taking minor things out of context, only to blow them all up and apply them to everything associated with whatever his target _du jour_ is (I think he has a dropdown-plugin in his IE that lets him select the UN, the Palestinians, Arafat, the EU, the Democrats, Hillary Clinton, or France). He has been doing this for so long, that people have come to expect this sort of behaviour from him. Since his debating techniques (or lack thereof) are so disingenious, people immediately start raking him over the coals for the form rather than for the substance of his message. And understandably so, as the “substance” of his messages is usually not even worth debating. A free UN lunch got out of hand because of a strike, and people took all the food. Food which was to be free anyway. Big fucking deal, most sane people would say, so they won’t even debate it seriously. Also, note that **december** once again opted for the Pit instead of for GD. He doesn’t want to _debate_. He wants to curse at the Evil United Nations. Don’t let his ability to form three sentences in a row throw you off. He’s playing his usual game, and it’s as transparant as clean polished glass. > [@](#): > > **This is like Bizarro Stormfront, where a conservative may speak so long as he frames his argument in a manner acceptable to the predominance of liberals. Doubtless, all concerned will deny the legitimacy of my perception, but nevertheless, it’s what I perceive.** This is The Straight Dope, where facts prevail over conviction and spin. That’s what _I_ perceive. > [@](#): > > **I honestly believe, whether rightly or wrongly that had, say you, brought this matter up, we would all still be talking about it and drawing comparisons between it and the looting in Iraq.** I trust the average Doper to rake me over the coals too, if I were to be so ignorant to compare an organisational mishap leading to a minor disturbance of a free luncheon to widescale looting of the historic treasures of a nation where anarchy suddenly reigned after an invasion by a foreign army. > [@](#): > > **This topic is a matter that can be effectively argued either way — there is or is not a legitimate analogy to the looting in Iraq — but rather than approaching the topic that way, the overwhelming focus is on the personality of December.** I think the majority vote here seems to be that it’s a crap analogy, Lib. As for all the attacks on **december** ’s personality: he’s only got himself to blame. > [@](#): > > \*\*I’ve heard many times from people that December yanks chains. I don’t think he does. I think that his viewpoint is dismissed categorically, not based on its merit, but on the reputation that you and others have pinned on him. \*\* The only person who’s responsible for **december** ’s reputation on these boards is **december**. As for your impression that **december** doesn’t yank chains per se: that could very well be. I’ve been reading this guy’s tripe for a few years now, and I’m not sure if he’s a deliberate troll or just an intellectually challenged arch-conservative (which doesn’t mean conservatives are intellectually challenged per se, of course). Maybe he’s a bit of both. The fact that the guy is still around tells you that the Staff isn’t entirely sure what **december** is, either. Well, other than “rather annoying”, that is. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/72 "2003-05-05T14:13:15Z")
By the way in regards to december’s characterization of UN peacekeeping capacity and the Bosnia debacle (in which as I recall people like december did not want to get involved at all at the time) I direct readers to this helpful resource center: [http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/peacekpg/index.htm](http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/peacekpg/index.htm) ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/73 "2003-05-05T14:13:47Z")
Lib, since I was the first poster to this thread, and thus, on some level set the argument, I can honestly say that I would have posted _the exact same thing_ no matter who the OP was. Moreover, I am a little disappointed that you have compared liberals to Stormfronters. I see the comparison as not only offensive, but intellectually dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/74 "2003-05-05T14:26:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **Of course, I merely quoted _Time_. If there was any spin or misinterpretation, it came from them.** Weasel mode engaged, Captain. The misinterpretation isn’t whatever _Time_ presented as solid journalism (which it wasn’t). It’s you taking a minor incident, and applying it to the ethics of the entire organisation. How else would you explain your thread title? > [@](#): > > **Not bothering to find his own criticism, but merely piling on.** **december** , should you ever provide a valid point, I’d be happy to debate it. In this thread, I’ve seen none, though. Piling on? You invite it onto yourself, buddy. It’s your disingenious tactics getting you in trouble, not your points of view - your points of view have been so ridiculous as of late that they’re not worth debating. And if you felt they needed to be debated, then why did you start this in the Pit? **Libertarian** , have at it. Try and save him. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/75 "2003-05-05T14:30:34Z")
By the way, for Coldfire: "The Dutch Were Not at Fault in Srebrenica - The World Was " [http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/peacekpg/lessons/sreb1.htm](http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/peacekpg/lessons/sreb1.htm) I’m not sure I liked the article’s analysis but I was moderately amused by its…backhanded praise I think might be the term, for the Dutch. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/76 "2003-05-05T14:31:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Libertarian, have at it. Try and save him. Your bias precedes you. I do not believe he needs “saving”. Just because the waters are stormy does not mean that a ship is off-course. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/77 "2003-05-05T14:36:22Z")
Which is to say that Lib has apparently realized that december in fact argued what Lib claimed was a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/78 "2003-05-05T14:38:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Your bias precedes you. I do not believe he needs “saving”. Just because the waters are stormy does not mean that a ship is off-course. \*\* Yes, a very nice metaphor I’m sure but it doesn’t change the fact that the OP is a pile of bollocks. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/79 "2003-05-05T14:39:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\*By the way, for Coldfire: > > "The Dutch Were Not at Fault in Srebrenica - The World Was " > [http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/peacekpg/lessons/sreb1.htm](http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/peacekpg/lessons/sreb1.htm) > > I’m not sure I liked the article’s analysis but I was moderately amused by its…backhanded praise I think might be the term, for the Dutch. \*\* Well, as much as I would like to believe that the Dutch were without blame, they were not. Grave errors were made in top military echelons, both nationaly and at the UN level. The investigations showed that the Dutch weren’t solely to blame, which was only just. And as a result of a Dutch investigation over Srebrenica, the government at least had the balls to resign, even though the report was published 7 years later, and the responsible ministers were not part of the resigning cabinet (though the PM was). Nobody deserves praise over Srebrenica, though. It was a fuck-up of the highest order. But it’s good to know that the men on the ground aren’t any longer held responsible for it: they were too lightly armed, outnumbered, and did not get the air support they were promised. Leading to the deaths of thousands of Muslim men. **Lib** , if you don’t think **december** needs saving, do you agree with his point, then? And if you don’t, then what is the purpose of your “support”, for lack of a better word? Do you agree that his thread title and tactics in this thread are intellectually dishonest? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033/80 "2003-05-05T14:43:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > Well, as much as I would like to believe that the Dutch were without blame, they were not. Grave errors were made in top military echelons, both nationaly and at the UN level. The investigations showed that the Dutch weren’t solely to blame, which was only just. And as a result of a Dutch investigation over Srebrenica, the government at least had the balls to resign, even though the report was published 7 years later, and the responsible ministers were not part of the resigning cabinet (though the PM was). > > Nobody deserves praise over Srebrenica, though. It was a fuck-up of the highest order. But it’s good to know that the men on the ground aren’t any longer held responsible for it: they were too lightly armed, outnumbered, and did not get the air support they were promised. Leading to the deaths of thousands of Muslim men. I don’t disagree, but read the article for the amusement factor in re characterization of the Dutch, it’s a bit on the patronizing side in my reading. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-think-the-us-has-looting-problems-in-iraq-the-un-cant-even-police-itself/173033.md?page=5)