There might or might not be a valid analogy between the UN’s ability to police its own house and its ability to police the world (which is the argument in December’s OP). It is arguable either way, which is rather the point that I am making. The rhetorical equivalents of razzing and shooting birds, which this thread mostly consists of, do not constitute refutations. The purpose of my “support” is to establish for the record that not everyone has dismissed the argument simply because it was made by December.
Personally, I believe that the UN has demonstrated again and again its inability to build nations, establish peace, or guarantee stability. It is rather corrupt and impotent.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by december *
**My points are…[ul] [li]To observe that the UN isn’t as good at it’s ought to be at certain tasks.[/ul] **[/li][/QUOTE]
Resolved:
Whoever it was in charge of the cafeteria at the UN headquarters shall not be allowed to bid on a contract to rebuild Iraq’s food service infrastructure.
Hmmm. Perhaps a bit, but it also shows great insight in Dutch political culture, and the historical guilt the Dutch have over the betrayed Jews of WWII. They are very important factors behind the continuing Dutch support for UN peacekeeping missions, and as stated in the article, relatively one of the largest contributions to foreign aid in the world.
To a lot of international journalists, we’re just a rather inconsequential weird liberal monarchy on the shores of the North Sea. I don’t think that’s the case with this journalist: she pegged it just right.
There’s an article in this week’s Economist on the “Commitment to Development Index” some think-tank came up with. The Netherlands was ranked number one overall. It scored very high for contributions in the form of foreign aid, but not so high in peacekeeping. I just thought it was interesting.
Deliberate highjack or no, at least we’re talking about something other than december’s periodical verbal diarrhea. Somehow, this strikes me as a good thing.
Quite frankly I’m disturbed by this. I’m not sure if it stems from ignorance of how the UN’s “house” works, or if it is inspired by some other motive, but the situation described by the article is absolutely no reflection on the UN’s abilities as peacekeepers or nation builders.
Some background on common US business practices, especially with regards to how office buildings are managed, might be informative here. We’ll start off with the understanding that, while a organization might nominally be “in charge” of a building, in reality the maintenance of that building and certain other services require skillsets most organizations don’t have. I work for a telecommunications firm. The office building I work in has a full-service cafeteria, elevators, washrooms, locker rooms, and a host of other amenities whose maintenance needs fall outside the realm of expertise of telecommunications professionals. There is a seperate management structure, working on a contract basis, which arranges to have these needs met. Subcontracts are awarded to a licensed food service organization who provides trained staff and some minimal infrastructure and combine it with the built-in infrastrucutre to produce a working cafeteria. Similarly, the office building has security cameras and guard stations but none of my company’s employees are trained in guard proceedures or carry guns. An outside firm is contracted, or subcontracted, to provide these services.
Why does this matter? Because if there has been a breakdown of order or services at UN headquarters it is most likely the result of one of these contracting or subcontracting agencies incompetence, NOT the UN in general. The diplomats don’t handle the selection of a food service vendor, nor do the supervise the contract to assure disputes are resolved without strikes or mayhem. If there is a daycare at the UN headquarters building I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that it is NOT run by UNICEF, nor do they have virtually ANY say over who is hired or their policies/practices. The same people who run the cafeteria at UN HQ are emphatically NOT in charge of the “Oil for Food” program. Failure on the part of one party does NOT implicate ANYTHING about the other. Their association is absolutely minimal. Do you think office security is handled by UN peacekeepers? The paradigm in the US is to have outside sources handle these types of services. The employees of the organization have virtually no input or even visibility to these types of decisions/issues. To assign them responsibility when they don’t even have input/visibility is a failure of logic of immense proportions.
I’m honestly just disturbed by the implication that the incompetence which lead to this fiasco is being attributed to the UN in general. Even “arguably”.**
This is a perfectly valid opinion. One would hope it is based upon actual instances of UN corruption or incompetence on the part of the people in the branches which actually are involved in nation building and peacekeeping instead of imputing their incompetence based upon reports of incompetence in a completely unrelated section of the organization or a third party. Guilt by assosciation, especially when the association is as tenuous as “they work in the same building”, is a pretty poor justification for believing the UN “corrupt and impotent”. You won’t win very many thoughtful people to your viewpoint if you offer this type of reasoning in support of your condemnations.
Antiquities traders, scum? That’s an interesting article, FWIW. I thought since this thread had looting in the title…
I’ve heard rumors about the looting of the museum in Baghdad to the effect that it was an inside job by the employees. Anybody have a cite on that? Or, should I file it under BS?
I saw this on Fox News Channel just a couple of hours ago. They said that many of the display cases were opened with keys, rather than smashed. And, in many cases the objects taken were those highly valued by museum officials. Their conclusion was that thefts were either done by museum officials or with their cooperation.
No diplomats participated in any looting whatsoever. All reports say that up to $7000 of food was taken, plus some silverware. The food was free. You cannot loot what is given away.
Diplomats and office workers running amok just because there was free food really is fucked up. There is a perfectly decent pit thread somewhere in here. It’s just december had to ruin it with stupid comparisons and hyperbole that verges on downright deceit.
Boggirl. The food was given away, but not the liquor. Time magazine said diplomats took liquor, and implied that the amount was considerable.
Glad we agree about this, anyhow.
Sorry you don’t like the comparison with Iraqi looting, but Time called it, “nothing short of Baghdad style chaos.” Nor was the hyperbole (if any) mine. The descriptive terms in the OP were quoted from Time.
Chapter 15, Article 97 of the UN Charter designates the Secretary General as the chief administrative officer. Article 100 forbids the Secretary General from seeking or receiving instructions with respect to his duties from “any government or from any other authority external to the Organization”. That includes subcontractors. He is charged by Article 101 with forming and overseeing the staffing of the UN’s bureaucracies. Section 3 of that Article specifically stipulates that “The paramount consideration in the employment of the staff and in the determination of the conditions of service shall be the necessity of securing the highest standards of efficiency, competence, and integrity.” If there was disorder in the UN’s operations — to include looting in the restaurants and bars — the blame lies squarely with the Secretary General.
Can you name even one instance, other than East Timor, in which the United Nations has done anything even remotely successful in that regard?
Yea, some of the diplomats abuse diplomatic immunity to park wherever the hell they like as well. Your point?
Again, even assuming the article was completely serious(a pretty far-out assumption), there was very little “looting” going on here. Most of the things that were taken were freely given. Tableware, of which the reports of theft are higly dubious and quantities are unknown, seems to be the only category of item which was “looted”. As others have said this may have been due to any number of factors. Taking from the premises because of overcrowding or perhaps it was just lost because the regular channels to recieve it(also out of comission due to the strike) were down. It was chaotic because incompetence on the part of the food service management group had resulted in a strike and the normal distribution mechanisms had broken down. Take away the infrastructure for orderly distribution and then declare the goods “free for all comers” in a venue which normally costs up to $20 for lunch and you’ll get a rush that looks like a freaking war zone.
Again, this implies nothing at all about the professional competence of these people in their own fields. It is still a staggering failure of logic to draw comparisons between this event and the breakdowns which led up to it and the UN’s capabilities at peacekeeping/nation building.
I get confused amongst the welter of facts december includes … someone remind me, how many were arrested by the present and seemingly watchful security guards, and what were they charged with .? . just one single fact is all I ask, instead of this scummy, journalsleeze, innuendo laden nonsense …
We have had several threads about people being pigs and showing no class at events like church picnics or company events where food and beverages are served free. In those threads nobody suggested Intel couldn’t build computers because some of their employees behaved like low class pigs. And if someone suggested Intel could not be trusted to build a reliable microprocessor because of that they would have been laughed out of the thread. Thuis thread is exactly that: a really stupid display of december’s prejudice and idiocy. december, don’t you think it’s about time you grew up?
Nonsense. Would you hire an accountant who cannot balance his own checkbook? If this had happened in, say, the State Department’s cafeterias, the liberals would be lined up to scream how incompetent the Bush administration is.