# You Too Can Be a Minister **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 3, 2000, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861 "2000-02-03T02:46:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RoboDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@RoboDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoboDude)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/1 "2000-02-03T02:46:00Z")
I vaguely recall hearing refrences to becoming a minister by mail. 1. Is this true? 2. If it is, does the church actually recognize it? * * * Life is a tragedy for those who feel and a comedy for those who think. ---
**Author:** ![Yossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/9de0a6/32.png) [@Yossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yossarian)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/2 "2000-02-03T02:58:00Z")
Yep. It’s true. The Universal Life Church of Modesto California will make you a licensed minister for FREE, just for the asking. You can also ask on-line. Their address is: [http://ulc.org](http://ulc.org) And it’s legit. Some Federal Judge some time back said so (they’ll give you the cite on their web page somewhere, I’m sure). My credentials? I’ve been a minister (Rev. John) since August 1991, and I’m the “Pastor” of the Big Bend ULC (to register as a church with the great State of California costs $35). The only ministerial thing I’ve ever done, though, is perform a marriage–which also proved to be the test of my legality, as I shall now share with you: Buddy of mine and his gf wanted to get married (secretly). Called me up, asked me to do it, I said “sure”. They came over, we drank a couple of Lone Stars, and I signed the paperwork which he then filed at the county courthouse. Cut to two years later: they’re sick of each other. My buddy, not wanting to pay for a divorce, goes down to the courthouse to talk his way out of it–explaining that I’m a Universal Life Church minister, not a “real” minister. The court says: “Sorry, dude. He’s legit.” And they had to go through the divorce. So, my marryin’ record (for other people, anyway) is 0-1. But it did get me that official word from the great State of Texas that a ULC minister is a legal minister! From the Big Bend Universal Life Church, Rev. John ---
**Author:** ![ellis555](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e36b37/32.png) [@ellis555](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ellis555)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/3 "2000-02-03T03:34:00Z")
you can also pony up some cash to become an minister for the church of the subgenius. not sure if it’s legally binding, but i know that they’ve performed mass marriages in the past (one couple, hundreds of ministers). [http://www.subgenius.com](http://www.subgenius.com) -ellis ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/4 "2000-02-03T07:00:00Z")
What is your purpose in becoming a minister? Is it to perform marriages? If so, you might want to check out a thread currently in the “Comments on Cecil’s columns” forum. [http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000462.html](http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000462.html) The thread is on a different subject, but in it, **Billdo** says > [@](#): > > There has been a litigation throughout the country over the Universal Life Church, an organization based in California, which believes everyone is or can be a minister, and will send anyone ministerial credentials for the payment of a small fee. Most jurisdictions have held that a Universal Life Church “minister” is not a valid minister under the law of the state and the Establisment Clause, and have found that marriages performed by such to be invalid. ---
**Author:** ![frolix8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f04885/32.png) [@frolix8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frolix8)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/5 "2000-02-03T14:22:00Z")
I got married in Connecticut in '77 by one of these ministers. I asked when I got the license whether there would be any problem, the clerk said the state didn’t care about anything but the signed, witnessed marriage license. There is no “official registration” of people who can perform a marriage. This was covered in a column about whether Captains can perform marriages at sea. Most people want a ceremony, but it’s not mandatory. All the mumbo-jumbo with the “I do” and “I now pronounce you man and wife” is a religious thing, how can the state require a religious wedding? Also, if you’re married and sign the license and it’s witnessed there is no way that you can nullify the marriage based on the qualifications of the witness (minister), in spite of all the sitcom episodes that show otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/6 "2000-02-03T16:24:00Z")
It isn’t even true according to Roman Catholic religious law. In fact, until the Counter-Reformation, there was no requirement for church involvement at all. At that time, they made it necessary that a priest perform the ceremony, but _only_ so that there would be an official witness if the question of whether the two were married or not ever came up; a problem discovered later with the priest would not invalidate a good-faith marriage. As a matter of RC theology, the bride and groom marry each other, and they, not the priest, are the ministers of the Sacrament of Matrimony. (The Eastern Orthodox churches feel differently about this, however.) * * * John W. Kennedy “Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.” – Charles Williams ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/7 "2000-02-03T16:31:00Z")
As Arnold W. says, I would be very careful on relying on Universal Life Church ministerial credentials for anything. With regard to marriage, the North Carolina Supreme Court had this to say in State v. Lynch, 301 N.C. 479 (at 488), 272 S.E.2d 349 (at 354-55) (1980): > [@](#): > > A ceremony solemnized by a Roman Catholic layman in the mail order business who bought for $10.00 a mail order certificate giving him “credentials of minister” in the Universal Life Church, Inc.–whatever that is–is not a ceremony of marriage to be recognized for purposes of a bigamy prosecution in the State of North Carolina. The evidence does not establish–rather, it negates the fact–that Chester A. Wilson was authorized under the laws of this State to perform a marriage ceremony. In general, the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit has this to say, in Mason v. Central Brown School District, 851 F.2d 47 (at 52) (2d Cir 1988): > [@](#): > > This is not the first time that a branch of the ULC has come under a federal court’s scrutiny. [citations omitted] Indeed, in our own circuit, there is case law recognizing that at least some governmental agencies view the ULC as a “total fraud”. \>United States v. Sundstrom, 489 F.2d 859, 861 (2d Cir.), aff’g, 359 F.Supp. 1252, 1257 (S.D.N.Y.1973), cert. denied, 419 U.S. 934, 95 S.Ct. 205, 42 L.Ed.2d 163 (1974). > > ``` > The reason for this skepticism is hardly surprising when one examines the organization's history and practices. The ULC, headquartered in Modesto, California, operates through "mail order ministries", a process whereby anyone, simply by paying a fee, can be ordained a minister of a local ULC "branch". The ministers have no required duties, nor does the church have any established creed or doctrines. The ULC also issues "mail order church charters" through which as few as three people, all of whom may be members of the same family, can be designated as a "congregation". Once ordained, a minister donates to the church the earnings from his regular occupation by placing the money into his "congregation's" bank account. In so doing, the minister claims a charitable contribution deduction of up to 50 percent of his gross income, with a corresponding reduction in income tax liability. The minister then withdraws money from the account, tax-free, for the upkeep of the "church" (his home), and his living expenses, including food and lodging. See United States v. Gleason, 766 F.2d 1239 (8th Cir.1985); accord United States v. Zimmerman, 832 F.2d 454 (8th Cir.1987). > > ``` Although some local marriage registry bureau officials may not know about the ULC and informally advise couples that “any minster” may perform a marriage, that does not answer the question of whether a person holding a ULC “minister” certificate will be recognized as a valid minister under state law. Although some states may recognize them, others emphatically do not. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/8 "2000-02-03T17:52:00Z")
I too became a ULC minister when they first put their website online. I mentioned it to a bowling team member, and she asked if I could perform her wedding to her new boyfriend. Knowing how flighty her romances were, I put her on hold by saying I’d have to look up the legalities. After we bowled and were on the way home, my wife _told_ me that I was _not_ performing that wedding. (She felt it cheapened marriage, after just having a very beautiful and ceremonial wedding ourselves.) Circumstances were in my favor: ULC ministers _can_ officiate marriages in Virginia, but they (like all other ministers) must file a $400 fee. Also, once the fee is filed, a minister can only charge $10 maximum. So, since I wasn’t about to fork over $400, or go into the marrying biz to make a profit, I got out of performing. Fortunately, she didn’t want to cross state lines to do it; Marylands laws are more lax IIRC. * * * Wrong thinking is punished, right thinking is just as swiftly rewarded. You’ll find it an effective combination. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/9 "2000-02-04T06:37:00Z")
In Ohio: > [@](#): > > §3101.10 > A minister upon producing to the secretary of state, credentials of his being a regularly ordained or licensed minister of any religious society or congregation, shall be entitled to receive from the secretary of state a license authorizing him to solemnize marriages in this state so long as he continues as a regular minister in such society or congregation. A minister shall produce for inspection his license to solemnize marriages upon demand of any party to a marriage at which he officiates or proposes to officiate or upon demand of any probate judge. Thus, in Ohio, as long as the ULC was considered a religious society or congregation, a minister can perform marriages, but FIRST must obtain a lisence to do so. The code prohibits solemnizing a marriage without having the lisence to do so, and criminalizes violation of that prohibition. ---
**Author:** ![jane\_says](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/47e85d/32.png) [@jane\_says](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jane_says)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/10 "2000-02-04T06:44:00Z")
I too am a minister with ULC (since 1997), as well as my sister and mt dad. My dad thinks it’s uproariously funny and keeps his ordination certificate framed on his office wall. For a nominal fee, you can also get “degrees” from the church, or even become a Saint or Goddess, etc. When my sister and her husband got married Halloween night, 1998 at a punk club, they had trouble finding a minister willing to perform the ceremony. She asked me to do it, but our mother pitched a fit. Her intended’s drummer became ordained the day before the ceremony and they had the wedding in the middle of the show they were doing, at midnight. Mom refuses to display the wedding pictures in her house. When they took the wedding license to the courthouse to be signed, the receptionist told them they’d have to come back in with the minister. The drummer/evangelist acted very indignant that he was mistaken for anything other than the Reverend he was. They let him sign it and all is well. As an aside to this, some places are considering stopping ULC weddings, or at least not recognizing them legally. I live fairly close to Gatlinburg, TN (tacky capital of the world, next to Myrtle Beach). Along with the other tourist traps, they have about one hundred million wedding chapels similar to the ones in Vegas - assembly-line type ceremonies. The TN legislature is tossing around the idea of cutting out the weddings on the grounds that it’s not actually a church but rather strictly a money-making scheme. (Unlike all those other really kind, generous churches. No one’s in THAT for the money, right?) Sounds like some sort of Constitutional slipery slope to me - “WE’LL decide what makes a church a church!” Brought to you by the same folks who made it legal to eat road kill last year. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/11 "2000-02-03T21:03:00Z")
Been a ULC minister since about 1990 (I think). Did it the old-fashioned way, via snail mail. I guess I’m the only one proud enough to make it part of my user name! Infidels! ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/12 "2000-02-03T21:20:00Z")
Oh, awesome Rev. You know, I’ve been wondering for a long time what church you were in based on the content of your messages… ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/13 "2000-02-03T21:29:00Z")
OK, I always wondered—if you found yourself jobless and homeless and friendless and at the end of your rope, couldn’t you just join a convent or a monastery? I mean, if you claim to have a “calling” and want to become Sister SaxFace or Brother Finagle (not that THEY are apt to wind up homeless, I’m just pulling names out of a hat!), wouldn’t they have to house you and feed you? ---
**Author:** ![Raza](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raza/32/213_2.png) [@Raza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raza)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/14 "2000-02-03T21:44:00Z")
So far, the discussion, ULC aside, seems pretty cut-and-dry…either the state recognizes you as an ordained minister or not. But in Islam there are no ordained ministers. While the _Imam_ is often one who has a religious education and acts as the _Imam_ as his profession, it is not a requirement. You can (and often do, in smaller mosques) have an Imam-of-the-day chosen from the congregation. In Florida and other states where Notaries Public are empowered to perform marriages, one or more of the _Imams_ will become notaries for this purpose. I was married in Georgia (well, I’m married in all 50 states, but the ceremony was conducted in GA) where Notaries Public are not empowered to perform marriages. The _Imam_ who conducted our wedding simply signed his name and the name of the mosque on the license, and it seemed to work. ---
**Author:** ![Lucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucky)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/15 "2000-02-03T21:50:00Z")
Hey, I’m a ULC minister, too! I had no idea there were so many of us here. Maybe we would have gotten along better with the LBMBer’s if we’d have mentioned that! ::::running for cover:::: * * * “I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/16 "2000-02-03T23:36:00Z")
Cat’s finally out of the bag Handy. Last week I was in a bar playing NTN Trivia, and I logged in as Revtim. Someone at the bar said “Hey, there’s a RevJoe that plays here too sometimes. Only he’s not a _real_ reverend, he was ordained by the ULC.” Needless to say, I set her straight on the reality of being a ULC minister. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/17 "2000-02-05T06:24:00Z")
Rabbis aren’t really ministers in the Christian sense, either, and don’t have any special connection with marriage. It’s just an accomodation to the reality, for most Jews, of living in a Christian world. I suppose it won’t do any good, but “Reverend” is not a title; it’s an honorific. “Reverend Mr. Jones,” “Reverend Dr. Jones,” “Reverend Fr. Jones,” or even, “Reverend John Jones,” are OK, but “Reverend Jones” is bad grammar. Don’t say “Reverend” in a place you wouldn’t say “Honorable”. * * * John W. Kennedy “Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.” – Charles Williams ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/18 "2000-02-06T09:23:00Z")
Well, Revtim, I am also a Reverend with the ULC but “Reverend Evilbeth” as a username just didn’t seem to flow! Maybe I should switch it around and try “Evil Reverend Beth?” * * * The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they’re going to be when you kill them. ---
**Author:** ![Erik\_Raven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Erik\_Raven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erik_Raven)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/19 "2000-02-06T15:44:00Z")
I thought it was always supposed to be “the Reverend” [insert name here]. I don’t like to sound like a a freedom nut, but what the hell difference does it make if you have a marriage performed by some numbnuts ordained by a loopy (non)church? I mean, if you can get legally married by a CLERK at city hall or a NOTARY at Mail Boxes, Etc. why not be able to get married by someone who (presumably) has a sense of humor? – The Reverend Erik Raven ULC ordained since January 1997 ---
**Author:** ![randomlyblanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71c47a/32.png) [@randomlyblanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomlyblanks)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861/20 "2000-02-06T17:08:00Z")
I’m curious as to what the major religions of the world think of this. Is it possible to be a Catholic and a ULC minister at the same time without being like excommunicated or damned to hell? 😕 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-too-can-be-a-minister/6861.md?page=2)