# You try to burn a flag, and I prevent it.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 19, 2001, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369 "2001-10-19T04:24:55Z")
**Posts on this page:** 17
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2001, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/21 "2001-10-20T09:14:20Z")
Actually, I suspect that the scenario outlined in the OP is quite common. I once saw a group of black-clad anarchists set a flag on fire at a protest, and a cop rushed over and snatched the flag away, without arresting or beating up anyone, and that was the end of that. Perhaps this scenario is becoming even more common, since I think people have been put on trial for beating up flag-burners.
I don’t get angry at flag-burners or flag-rescuers. But people who beat up flag-burners should (and do) go to jail.
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### Author:  [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2001, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/22 "2001-10-20T14:05:21Z")
[QUOTE]
\*Originally posted by MEBuckner \*
\*\*
> [@](#):
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> It’s like dashing into a burning building to save a _picture_ of your wife and children, and ignoring your actual family.\*\*
Perfect. I’m going to file that quote away for future use. Hope you don’t mind.
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### Author:  [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2001, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/23 "2001-10-20T16:21:05Z")
MEBuckner wrote:
> [@](#):
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> Note that the [enlistment oath](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/502.html) is to the _Constitution_, not the flag.
Wow! It looks like Federal law **requires** military enlistees to say “So help me God”!
Where’s Madalyn Murray O’Hair when we need her?
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### Author:  [@Greyson3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greyson3)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2001, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/24 "2001-10-20T18:01:10Z")
> [@](#):
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> Where’s Madalyn Murray O’Hair when we need her?
She was murdered a while back along with her son and granddaughter.
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### Author:  [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2001, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/25 "2001-10-20T18:20:47Z")
Precisely. See? She gets herself all kidnapped and murdered and stuff, and here would be the **perfect** cause for her to take up were she still alive, dog gone it.
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### Author:  [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/26 "2001-10-21T01:37:45Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by DPWhite \*
> **Yes, you would be guilty of petty theft (assuming a cheap flag.) But more importantly, you would be guilty of robbery (theft by putting someone in fear for their physical safety)**
You’re assuming facts not in evidence, nor even implied.
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> \*\*…and arson.
\*\*
That doesn’t even makes sense.
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> \*\* And you would likely be convicted, because you were a rash fool, not understanding that this was a flag that was being properly burned under the United States Code in a ceremony designed to retire old and worn flags.\*\*
I guess you imagined a whole 'nother scenario.
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> \*\*Get all the facts before you decide to play hero. \*\*
Ok, I’ll make sure to check with you first. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/27 "2001-10-21T02:11:02Z")
I admit I didn’t quite get the “arson” remark, but the scenario from the O.P. _could_ lead to a charge of simple robbery (at least under the laws of the State of Georgia):
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> A person commits the offense of robbery when, with intent to commit theft, he takes property of another from the person or the immediate presence of another:
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> (1) By use of force;
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> (2) By intimidation, by the use of threat or coercion, or by placing such person in fear of immediate serious bodily injury to himself or to another; or
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> (3) By sudden snatching. – [Official Code of Georgia, 16-8-40](http://www.ganet.org/cgi-bin/pub/ocode/ocgsearch?number=16-8-40) (emphasis added)
From the O.P.:
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> I grab the flag.
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### Author:  [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/28 "2001-10-21T02:22:08Z")
I feel sorry for shoplifters in GA if they just think they can grab a candy bar and dash and only be at risk for being charged with petty larceny.
Wait, no I don’t.
* * *
Thanks for the input, folks.
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### Author:  [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/29 "2001-10-21T02:22:59Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by J248974 \*
> Some of us believe that the Symbol of the nation goes beyond free speech and that free speech itself has started to infringe on the rights of others.
Theft is a right?
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> Some of us believe that all of the blood spilled for the Flag should get it a lot more respect than having of dirty handed, foul mouthed free-speecher burn it in public just to prove a vague point.
So once so one has died for something, it deserves respect? Now that people have died for terrorism, should we respect terrorism?
> [@](#):
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> Yes, I’ve read all of the arguments over free speech and the flag, that the flag stands for free speech, which is what everyone really died for and preventing the flag from being burned in protest is actually undermining the symbol itself, but I don’t care. Rationalize it all you want, it is still wrong.
Sounds to me like you’re the one doing the rationalization.
jab1
> [@](#):
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> I forget the particulars, but, many years ago, one or two guys ran onto the field at Dodger Stadium and tried to set an American flag on fire. A player ran over and snatched the flag from them.
Here are more [details](http://www.liberty.edu/chancellor/nlj/May1999/politics1.htm):
> [@](#):
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> Lasorda recalled a 1976 event in which a man rushed onto the field during a Dodgers game and attempted to burn an American flag. “We all watched dumbstruck as the man pulled out a match and tried to light the flag and burn it,” said Lasorda. Then Dodgers outfielder Rick Monday rushed to yank the flag from the man. “It was one of the most heroic acts ever to take place on the field during a major league baseball game,” recalled Lasorda.
Those firefighters that rushed into the WTC without regard for their personal safety were something, but is that anything compared to the heroism of stealing someone’s flag? :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Caracticus\_Potts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caracticus_Potts)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/30 "2001-10-21T02:32:52Z")
It’s _just_ the flag. It’s the _symbol_ of freedom, not freedom itself.
Some people want to outlaw burning it because they feel they are protecting what their loved ones died for fighting in wars. In fact what they are doing is becoming what their loved ones died fighting _against_. Repressors of opinion. You might not like the opinion, but whatever _your_ opinions are you can bet there are people who don’t agree with it. Aren’t you glad they can’t throw you in jail because of that?
If burning the flag is disrespectful, it’s no more disrespectful than flying it at McDonalds.
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### Author:  [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/31 "2001-10-21T02:40:33Z")
Hmmm, apparently Tommy Lasorda was the only one to witeness this event. This is rather suspicious…
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### Author:  [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/32 "2001-10-21T02:44:15Z")
My intention in the OP was to see if I’d have any legal defense if I prevented a flag burning, and that’s been answered to my satisfaction.
Please note that I’m _not_ in favor of an amendment barring flag burning, as I’ve said in other threads.
Suffice it to say, though, that _unless_ there was such an amendment passed and you were burning a flag in protest of _that_, then your actions would most likely have an adverse effect on your cause…at least in my view.
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### Author:  [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/33 "2001-10-21T03:10:30Z")
Well, it’s certainly true that, _as it now stands_, the American flag is simply a symbol of the United States. Therefore, whatever message a flag burning is _intended_ to convey, in practice it tends to send the message of hatred for the United States itself and its basic institutions.
However…if an amendment to the Constitution is ratified which bans “flag desecration”, then, to me at least, the flag will no longer stand for the United States or its Constitution or its fundamental institutions. The flag will have been successfully hijacked by self-righteous jingoists and right-wingers (with the aid and comfort, no doubt, of many spineless left-wingers) and, while I will still respect and support the United States and its Constitution, I will no longer have any respect at all for that particular piece of colored cloth.
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### Author:  [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/34 "2001-10-21T03:32:31Z")
**MEBuckner** ,
I agree with 100% of your first paragraph, and about 95% of the second.
If, somehow, the legislators managed to get such a bill through Congress, and it somehow got, what, 38 states to ratify it, then I’d just have to resign myself to the fact that I didn’t understand the intent of the First Amendment to the Constitution as well as I thought I did.
But I’d still respect the flag. I’d think, though, that the actual _desecration_ would actually lay in the amendment itself.
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### Author:  [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/35 "2001-10-21T04:18:54Z")
> [@](#):
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> …I’d just have to resign myself to the fact that I didn’t understand the intent of the First Amendment to the Constitution as well as I thought I did.
I’m not sure why you would make this statement. The Supreme Court has said that the First Amendment protects flag burning. If Congress and the state legislatures pass a constitutional amendment, it will overrule that decision, but it wouldn’t necessarily be the “original intent” of the First Amendment that would be enshrined in the Constitution, but rather the intent of the Congress and the state legislatures which pass the amendment.
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### Author:  [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/36 "2001-10-21T04:26:34Z")
Whattya want, an argument? You’re not going to get it from me.
I don’t think a “desecration” amendment has a chance of being ratified, even in these nationalistic days.
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### Author:  [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2001, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-try-to-burn-a-flag-and-i-prevent-it/88369/37 "2001-10-21T18:07:29Z")
[Moderator Hat ON]
Thread closed at the request of the OP.
[Moderator Hat OFF]
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