xenophon, it IS an opinion. What you have typed here is an opinion. It might be a correct opinion. It might be a wrong opinion, but it is an opinion! And it is an opinion that, once again, I’ve heard since Reagan.
I mean, I heard it during the Dubya administration, and actually, in the Dubya administration, it was quite a bit closer to fact than it is now. I know it’s not a drill. It’s never a drill. It doesn’t matter who is in the White House. It doesn’t matter if it’s a man or woman or whether he or she has a “D” or an “R” after the name. You never relax. You never stop holding the executive branch to account.
I’ll say it again: Anti-democratic, authoritarian, and downright dangerous men have always been around. They were here before Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden, and they will be here after.
The DIFFERENCE is how well you fight against them. So you think that Trump and his little cronies are going to take the constitution and shred it to use as confetti for their next victory parade in 2020? Then maybe it’s time to get serious about whom you run against them. I will say it again and again: Learn the lesson from 2016. The way to beat a shitty candidate is not with a slightly less shitty candidate. I didn’t write the rules, xenophon. These rules were written before either of us walked this earth, and they are right there waiting to be learned in the history books. Or the school of hard knocks. How you learn them is up to you, but never, not once have I lied to you or anyone else in this thread, nor have I said anything I didn’t mean.
So tell me, xenophon. Tell me how you plan to win this election with a candidate who said what he said to that radio host. Tell me how you plan to win this election with a guy with a reputation for being handsy in an era that simply doesn’t accept that any more from anyone. Tell me that an old, out-of-touch, morally bankrupt boomer can beat an incumbent president who pretty much lives to fight–AND who knows how to use the Internet. Show me how that’s going to work, convince me that’s going to work, and I will concede defeat, bow out of this thread, and not talk politics.
But until then, you need to hear it from somebody, so it might as well be me. Or you can put me on ignore. But I’m thinking you won’t, will you?
Oh, and quick correction: What you’re describing here isn’t moving the goalposts. “Moving the goalposts” refers to challenging the opponent to come up with an example of a counter-argument, and then when he or she does, immediately changing the requirements of the argument to something more specific–and thus harder to come up with. So if I challenged you to come up with an example of a four-legged animal with horns, and you come up with a horse, and then I say, “No, no, I mean a four-legged animal with a horn in the center of its forehead, and also it has to have wings,” THAT’S moving the goalposts.
What you’re describing here is called a shift in rhetorical focus.
All I get from this is that you don’t understand what racism is.
So, you don’t think that Trump or the current republicans have done any damage to our norms and institutions?
I’m just not sure how credible a belief that is to hold, at this point.
Did even Bush ever take a sharpie to a map and threaten to fire anyone who contradicted him on it?
Absolutely, but this is the first time that we’ve elected them to the presidency.
And what do you want us to do? You are saying that you didn’t write the rules, but you are also demonstrating that you do not understand them. Even if we suddenly had an epiphany and realized that you were absolutely correct, what could we do?
I didn’t pick Biden. xenophon41 didn’t pick Biden. But there he is. You can either vote for or against him at this point. All this constantly whining that you didn’t get your way in the primaries has absolutely nothing to do with the pick that you currently have in front of you.
You think that he is a shitty candidate, that’s great. The majority of democrats who bothered to go out and vote disagree with you. How do you think that we should pick candidates? Should we just ask you who to run, or is it okay if we perform some sort of democratic polling of those who he would represent?
It really doesn’t matter what they say. Sure, his comment was an unforced error, but republicans are just making themselves look foolish with their hyperbolism that it was the most racist thing that they have ever heard. They don’t care about racism, they just see a dig, an attack that they can make. An opportunity to bring their opponent down, and they don’t care how far down it takes them or the rest of the country, for that matter.
This gaffe will probably be repeated over and over and over till the election. Then probably over and over after that for good measure. Trump has an advantage here, you repeat Joe’s gaffe over and over to remind people of it, but trying to pick which inane utterance is the most harmful and hateful just from what Trump has said today is actually a fair amount of work.
That tells me that they know that the accusation of racism is something that you can attack with, but that they don’t actually understand what racism is.
He’s not the ideal candidate, but no one is.
Okay, so I ask you again, why are you not voting for yourself? If you will only back the person who you think is the best option, who best represents your views, then you should be advocating for yourself to take the office of president.
You have already said that practical considerations don’t matter, that the fact that you can’t win is irrelevant, and that your duty is to vote your conscience. How can you, in good conscience, vote for someone who doesn’t represent your interest 100%?
Why back Bernie, isn’t there someone in the hundreds of millions of people that are eligible that would better represent your interests?
Ah, it’s that game. Where I point out something that Trump has said, and you say, “Oh, that’s not racist.”
Well, lets start here, shall we…
“I have black guys counting my money. … I hate it," Trump told John R. O’Donnell, the former president of Trump Plaza Hotel & Casino, according O’Donnell’s account in his 1991 book “Trumped!” “The only guys I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes all day.”
Trump, according to O’Donnell, went on to say, “'Laziness is a trait in blacks. It really is, I believe that.”
Now this is the part where you explain that that was not racist.
ETA: I will agree with you, however, that he has said far more racist things about Mexicans and Muslims, how you consider that to be a defense, I have no idea.
Where did I say that I wasn’t going to vote for Biden? Where did I say that I don’t think Trump has done any harm? Where in the name of Ned did I say that I do or ever did support Bernie. I haven’t. I’ll say it again: I am not and never have been a democratic socialist. Until the 2004 election, I voted straight Republican.
This is not the voting booth. This is not the debate stage. This is not a political rally. This is a message board. We’re allowed and encouraged to think outside the box. This, k9 happens to be a thread about third party voters and why they might decide to vote third party. If ever there were a platform to vent about Biden, this is it, OK? How on Earth do you think I’m harming anyone? Do you think the few dozen people who still inhabit this board are going to read what I wrote and go, “Good golly, Linty makes a great point. I think I’ll vote Green this year.” I don’t think you have to worry about that.
So where’s the harm in my telling you where we screwed up? Especially when I take pains to include myself in that “we”? Even if I could sway someone (Sure!), I’ll repeat: However bad I might come off to you, the real bad guys are going to be MUCH worse.
What do you want me to do? Congratulate you? Congratulate the party on nominating a seventy-something who grabs women’s asses, mouths off to black radio show hosts and implies the black people who think for themselves to be race traitors (and remember, this guy makes Barry Manilow look like Huey Freeman), and doesn’t even know how to use the Interwebz? What exactly do you want me to say? What do you want me to do? I’ll vote for the guy, but damn, k9, don’t ask me to fight for him.
Who the fuck do you think you’re talking to? I pointed out that what Joe said was really fucking racist, and asked if Trump had ever said anything comparably racist about Black Americans. You’ll note (because you fucking quoted it) that I said “I genuinely don’t know.” You know why I said that? Because I didn’t fucking know! It wasn’t a rhetorical question. You’ll also note that I said was aware Trump had said more racist things about Mexicans and Muslims, implying I was certainly open to the possibility that Trump had said equally racist things about Black Americans.
And now you’re fucking goading me into justifying Trump’s “Laziness” comment? You think I was implying Trump couldn’t have said something more racist about Black Americans than what Joe said? Why? What, specifically, gave you that idea? Did you even once, for a moment, consider the possibility that I’m not aware of every single goddamn thing Trump has ever said, and that I simply didn’t know he’d said it? That I was actually asking in good faith?
You could’ve just said “Trump once said XYZ” and left it at that. That would’ve been fine. I would’ve thanked you for the information and that would’ve been the end of it. Instead, you went the other way for no good reason at all. Tell you what, next time I ask a question, any question, anywhere, please don’t answer it. We’ll both be happier if we each pretend the other doesn’t exist.
Where did I say that you were not going to vote for Biden?
You are certainly downplaying the dangers, with you talking about Bush being worse than Trump, that it doesn’t matter who is in the white house.
If you are not supporting Bernie, then who is your hold out choice? Who is it that you would have had the democrats pick?
I would assume that you do not confine all of your political advocacy to a message board that you claim only has a few dozen people, so I would assume that you are also spreading this same message eleswhere.
This is a debate stage, as that is what this forum is for.
This is a place for people to express why they will not vote for Biden. You have said that you are voting for Biden. So, you are not saying why you will not vote for Biden, you are saying why you think other people will not vote for Biden. This is not your platform to vent about Biden.
Not all that much pains to include yourself. In your post to xenophon41 , you were very pointed and accusatory that it was all xenophon41’sfault that we have Biden. That he should have done something different to have a different nominee.
Have a solution, rather than a complaint. Have a relevant answer as to why you will not vote for Biden, rather than simply sit back smarmy complaints that make you feel superior. Just a thought. Or you could keep doing what you are doing.
I don’t know, someone who, in our very first interaction, before I ever said anything at all to you, called me an “unrepentant cunt”
The fact that what Joe said wasn’t racist, much less really fucking racist aside, it took me all of 15 seconds to find that quote from Trump.
I am willing to defend Joe’s “you ain’t black” comment, and have done so over in the sliotd thread.
I thought that, given that you believed that Trump wouldn’t have said anything racist against blacks, would have heard at lest some of the racist comments that he has made, and had some reason to defend them. You would not have been the first on this board to do exactly that.
Tell you what, I’ll answer what questions, and respond to what comments that interest me.
Mea maxima culpa. As I’ve pointed out already, I do not consider Trump to be as dangerous as Bush was.
A solution? You want me to come up with a solution? On a message board that has a 900-page diatribe against Trump without anyone managing to come up with a single idea? I’m a lowly archivist in a decent academic library, and you want a solution from me?. After the Democratic party basically fucked itself seven ways from Sunday? Why didn’t anyone ask for my opinion before we nominated Biden? Why didn’t I get consulted before the powers that be sat down and decided “Yeah, this guy represents us!” Well . . . OK. Here’s my solution.
Could we try . . . ohhhhh, I don’t know, growing the fuck up, stop whining about how that mean, awful, nasty, stupid, tiny-fingered man with the bad tan job had the brass BALLS to beat our annoying, incompetent candidate and then . . . gasp . . . actually do something that appealed to his base? Without even consulting us? After he kicked our miserable asses?
And . . . get this. Are you sitting down for this? He’s going to do it again!! After we explicitly and consistently screamed about how much we didn’t want him to do this, he is going to ignore us, and he’s going to run the same campaign, and he’s going to sound really, really stupid, and we’re going to hate it, hate it, hate it, and maybe we’ll come up with some new Pit threads and some new lame nicknames for him, and we’re going to yell really, really loudly about how this is truly going to suck. And just because we nominated a Democratic candidate that was every bit as clumsy, uncharismatic, and gaffe-prone as Hillary.
Can you imagine that, k9? I mean, I’m pissed off. Imagine, losing for the second time, just because you didn’t learn a damned thing the first time around and repeated the same mistakes. Can you actually believe that we’re going to lose this election, just because we took the bait every time it was offered instead of learning how to play our own game and clean up our own house, and maybe run someone who wasn’t well past mandatory retirement age who thinks that women’s bodies are his personal playground and who can’t seem to place his order at a McDonald’s drive-thru without having to apologize for something stupid he said? The nerve of this world. It’s almost as if reality doesn’t vote along party lines.
Yes, yes, I know, four years from now, there’s no way we’re going to have an America left. It’s going to be the Democratic People’s Republic of Sitdownandshaddupistan, and if only the American people could see that. If only they could see what you see and think what you think and believe what you believe, we might have a shot. As it is, it’s off to the orangey death camps for us.
The TLDR version? You know something? I’m actually starting to see the third-party voters’ point.
Actually . . . yes. That was a decent rant, if I do say so myself. And I should get bonus points for typing it on a Friday evening before I’ve even started drinking.
Funny, isn’t it? Nobody wants to hear how you would solve the problem until they fuck it up. No, you’re in the way of progress, you just don’t understand the situation, you’re too naive, too privileged, too white, too old, too different. Stand aside and let the grown-ups handle it.
When it all goes to shit? THEN people want to ask you what you’d do. Suddenly, when you express dissatisfaction with the status quo, THEN people are interested in what you’d do differently. Right then. About a month after it’s too late to do anything. THAT’S when it starts being your fault. But not theirs, right?
Because his Department of Justice is reviewing and enforcing the fewest civil rights cases in 2 decades. And maybe that’s because he’s part of a party that frequently engages in race baiting.
Apparently my point was unclear. Of course moral issues can be an important part of our goals for improving society. That has nothing to do with my point.
I object to viewing one’s vote as an act in a “morality play” — what’s a better phrasing of my point? We have posters in this thread who write, in effect, “Of course the U.S. will follow a more moral course under Biden than under Trump, but Biden didn’t EARN my vote, he doesn’t DESERVE my vote.”
Get it? They understand that we, as a nation, want Biden to win — or at least the well-informed humanitarians among us do — but won’t vote for him anyway if he doesn’t DESERVE their vote. I’m sure there’s a better way to characterize their position than “acting as though they’re a character in a morality play” — what is the better way to express the idea?
Apologies for misunderstanding your post, but my point still stands.
You are complaining about getting wet when it rains. This is how elections have always worked, and it’s part of the reason we have Trump in the White House to begin with. Do you honestly believe that a black voter who tuned into that show and heard Biden say that thought to himself, “Well . . . that was a racist and condescending thing to hear, especially from some old white guy, but for the good of the country, I will still cast my vote for him and then go out and hang some signs and man the phones for this idiot, because he’s better than Trump.” How many people do you think are going to say that? They might not vote for Trump, septimus, but they’re certainly not going to fight for Biden. Hell, they might very well just stay home on election day, which is pretty much what happened not four years ago.
And I’ve got to say that I see the wisdom in it. Do you understand how a voter in a free society might resent your sense of entitlement? The hubris? The implication that Biden or any other Democrat shouldn’t have to work for you to vote for him, and that the mere fact he’s not the other guy compels you in some abstract way to vote for him? My question stands: If it were that easy, what would be the motivation to change the game plan at all, never mind improve the candidate?
I have NO obligation to vote for Biden. If I vote for Biden, it’s because I want to, and that goes for every other voter in the nation. I’m not going to have to get absolved after this election if I vote third party. I don’t share in some collective guilt. I didn’t do anything wrong. At all. Your candidate sucked, and in this nation, suck candidates tend to lose. I didn’t write that rule. But you know something? I’d vote for the guy who did.
Actually, I called you a disingenuous cunt. I’d forgotten about it, but I looked back over that thread and I stand by it as an accurate description of your behaviour at the time. If you don’t like salty language, stay out of the Pit. You clearly bear a grudge, and you brought that into this thread a year later. Poor show.
And old white man says that black people who don’t toe his line are race traitors. If you don’t think that’s racist then… well, all I get from that is you don’t understand what racism is.
Also, I don’t believe for a moment you’d be taking this line if anyone with an R after their name, even a moderate like Mitt Romney, had said what Joe said.
And well done for finding that quote from Trump. Truly, your google skills are better than mine. That doesn’t prove I was asking in bad faith.
I never said Trump wouldn’t have said anything racist against blacks. I said that I’d not heard Trump say anything so racist against blacks, and at the time I wrote that I hadn’t. And I even qualified it by saying I genuinely didn’t know. Now I know otherwise.
Well, you were wrong about that.
Okay, well I’ve blocked you now so you can answer whatever you like.
You have no obligation to vote for Biden, but you have an obligation to be an informed and conscientious voter, and as one, you have an obligation to consider the political candidates (plural, not singular) who will effect the better policies of the two major parties.
As I’ve said before, when you vote for Biden or Trump, you’re voting for the party and their policies, not just the individual. If we were voting for a king, who had broad unilateral authority, then you’d have a point about Biden. But a president has advisors and secretaries, and he hires a cabinet to run a multi-million employee and trillion dollar bureaucracy - he doesn’t do it alone. At democracy’s best, you’re voting for the guy or gal who will effect the policies that you’re more likely (though not guaranteed) to benefit from, but even when it’s functioning less well, at minimum, you’re voting for the person who will harm you the least. If you’re really progressive, then I think you’d agree that Biden checks those boxes.
I understand the frustration, and you’re not wrong for feeling that other voters have let you down in some sense. I feel that way myself a lot these days. But politics is about what’s still possible. Democracies slide into the political abyss when ordinary people start psychologically checking out, which is what a lot of Trump’s most fervent supporters really want. They want you to be angry -so angry at the system that you stop believing in the ability of the system to produce a fair or credible result.
