You vs. a medieval knight

[Mr.Kobayashi]

@BMalion

3 sir.

Now did the Lord say, “First thou pullest the Holy Pin. Then thou must count to three. Three shall be the number of the counting and the number of the counting shall be three.”

@Grestarian

Mr. K? How come you and Quadgop keep postulating that we’re caught *en flagrante delicto *in the historical past?

What’s the point of time travel if you aren’t going to seduce wenches?! Granted you might need to hose them down first.

Interesting that there’s a definite split between thinking that you having a weapon and him not will make him a cakewalk, or that he’ll disarm you in a split second and then shank you with it. Personally I’m of the second opinion as he knows these types of weapons and their handling better than any of us.

[Kobal2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kobayashi http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
You sure could, Greek Fire. Typically used against ships, though. The chances of becoming a human Roman candle would be uncomfortably high for me.

Too bad we have no earthly clue how they did it

Quote:
 	 		 			 				 					Originally Posted by **thelurkinghorror** 					 				
			 The advantage of things like axes and falchions is that they  are  easier/cheaper for untrained soldiers/peasant armies to use, no?

An axe is actually harder to use effectively or “right” than a sword - it’s unbalanced, it can get wedged or stuck easily, it’s hard to redirect mid-swing… OTOH while it lacks in finesse it will fuck you up if you have no or little armour; and as you say there was a whole segment of rural population who knew how to handle at least a hatchet/1H axe. And of course they could bring their own.

The Dane axe OTOH (or any other 2H axe) relied on quite specific martial knowledge to “work” - if you use it like a woodcutter’s axe you’ll leave yourself wide open 80% of your swing time, then again during the recovery. The trick is doing self-sustaining horizontal figure-8s, using the momentum of one strike to prime the next and so on, in effect generating a semicircular Wäll öf Mëtal. But don’t you dare ever stop !
[URL=“http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=17778845”]

[Kobal2]

Ugh. WTF is going on with edits, anyway ? Half the time it doesn’t give me the text of the post I’m editing and I have to copy/paste from scratch

[Sleel]

Soooo, I’m going to go way out on a limb and say that more than half the people who picked crossbow have never actually used one. Even a modern user-friendly one.

If the guy is pissed off and running at you, you are fucked. The OP specified that you have a quarrel, but that the crossbow isn’t spanned yet.

Good luck with that. The draw weight is higher than a longbow because: physics. You’ve got a smaller spring and you have to store roughly the same energy. That means that you’re looking at over 100 lbs. to span it, and I doubt any of you happen to have a belt hook to help with not cutting your fingers half-off with the string for a stirrup model. You’re going to have to sit your ass down on the ground and pull back the arms until the string seats itself. A windlass model would take even longer to span.

Pray to whatever gods you believe in that you have 10–15 seconds to do this, and enough time to load, aim, and loose subsequently. (I’m not including time to stand up because I don’t think you’ve got that luxury.) Hint: that means, hope the guy is more than 200 m away. It only takes me about 20–30 seconds to cover that distance, and I’m sure he would not be that much slower, especially when he sees some dumbshit trying desperately to span a crossbow.

[MrDibble]

Where does everyone get the idea that without his sword and armour a Teutonic Knight was some sort of martial arts badass?

[Sr_Siete]

@MrDibble

Where does everyone get the idea that without his sword and armour a Teutonic Knight was some sort of martial arts badass?

Well, there’s this conception about people being trained to fight being better than untrained schmucks, I guess.

[Onyerbike]

The knight is just a man without his sword. Weapons changed everything for us humans and I don’t see how this is different, the big guy is still at a disadvantage if he does not have a weapon. One little poke even with a dinky knife in the right spot or even the wrong spot just a few more times and that will be the decider.

If I can be magically okay with bringing a weapon to a punch up, I’d take the warhammer. I take that over the knife only because the knight is more likely to do unarmed training stuff with the civilian weapons of his day - daggers and whatnot. His skills facing down a hammer might be too battlefield dependent, what with armor and the horses and clanging swords. I have a pretty decent swing and men just aren’t that hard by themselves.

Although really I don’t want to kill him. I’d much rather knock him silly, wait for him to calm down, and then talk to him for hours about Geoffrey Chaucer.

[bengangmo]

On the assumption that I can get it armed - definitely the crossbow. Closest thing to a point and shoot on the list.

If not - then probably a dagger, in the hopes that I can keep it hidden long enough to stab him once he gets close.

Failing that - I’d be going for some sort of 2’-3’ weighted club. Something short and light enough for short strokes, but heavy and sharp enough to do damage if I manage to hit - some sort of spiked mace or something?

I’d be staying well away from any long weapons, cutting or thrusting weapons - too easy to be disarmed that way.

[Scumpup]

@MrDibble

Where does everyone get the idea that without his sword and armour a Teutonic Knight was some sort of martial arts badass?

The Western martial arts had their unarmed techniques just as the Eastern ones. There is no reason not to expect that this fellow is schooled in grappling, fisticuffs, and general close quarters mayhem.

[Scumpup]

Some information of use:

http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/unarmedcombat.htm

http://www.thortrains.com/getright/drillmedunarmed1.html

http://www.thortrains.com/getright/drillmeddisarms1.htm

Ringen

There are plenty of other sites and youtube videos only a google search away.

Of course, it is easier just to assume that our opponent is just a primitive screwhead who knows nothing about unarmed combat. After all, why would a member of the warrior class know anything about fighting? While we’re at it, why don’t we go ahead and assume he has polio, rickets, cataracts, and multiple sclerosis too?

[Inigo_Montoya]

@Scumpup

The Western martial arts had their unarmed techniques just as the Eastern ones. There is no reason not to expect that this fellow is schooled in grappling, fisticuffs, and general close quarters mayhem.

Not to put too fine a point on it: and disarming an opponent, and parrying while unarmed. (fresh fruit vs. pointed sticks comment goes here)

Yeah, no way is it a good idea to let el hombre get within 10 feet of you without him first getting the only wound he’s going to suffer that day. Even if does have rickets.

[RickJay]

@Sleel

Hint: that means, hope the guy is more than 200 m away. It only takes me about 20–30 seconds to cover that distance, and I’m sure he would not be that much slower, especially when he sees some dumbshit trying desperately to span a crossbow.

I totally agree with your general jist that people are really, really underestimating the difficulty of using a crossbow.

However, I’m curious; if you can cover two hundred meters of ground in as little as 20 seconds, which Olympics did you compete in and for what country?

[swampspruce]

I went with the Messer sword because it’s light, fast and specifically designed to hack up unarmored flesh. I’ve had some training on swords and sabres but even with that I’m hoping the knight’s anger overcomes his training because that’s about the only way I’d prevail.

I might even go for a seax instead as it is even faster.

[MrDibble]

@Sr_Siete

Well, there’s this conception about people being trained to fight being better than untrained schmucks, I guess.

Again, “trained to fight” is not the same as “martial arts badass” which is what people seem to be saying.

@Scumpup

The Western martial arts had their unarmed techniques just as the Eastern ones.

I am aware of this. Again, the existence of medieval unarmed combat techniques does not mean every knight was an unarmed martial arts badass, any more than the existence of karate makes every student at my local dojo a martial arts badass.

There is no reason not to expect that this fellow is schooled in grappling, fisticuffs, and general close quarters mayhem.

“schooled” and “expert in” are not synonymous.

Of course, it is easier just to assume that our opponent is just a primitive screwhead who knows nothing about unarmed combat.

I do not make this mistake - hell, we’ve slowly introduced some grappling into SCA sidesword, I’m familiar with it. That’s not my point.

After all, why would a member of the warrior class know anything about fighting?

That’s not the issue - it’s the people implying he’d know *everything *about fighting that I’m disagreeing with.

While we’re at it, why don’t we go ahead and assume he has polio, rickets, cataracts, and multiple sclerosis too?

Based on my readings, I’d say gout, an STD and cirrhosis of the liver are more likely ailments for a Teuton…

[Sleel]

@RickJay

I totally agree with your general jist that people are really, really underestimating the difficulty of using a crossbow.

However, I’m curious; if you can cover two hundred meters of ground in as little as 20 seconds, which Olympics did you compete in and for what country?

Ha, good point. Note to self: when guestimating times, double-check your lower bounds, and round up. My 100 m time is 11–12 seconds depending on the day, 400 m around 50 seconds. I never run 200s.

[Lobohan]

@Sleel

I never run 200s.

Well, you run one on the way to the 400.

[Sleel]

@MrDibble

Again, “trained to fight” is not the same as “martial arts badass” which is what people seem to be saying.

It’s not just being trained to fight, it’s the experience of fighting. SCA gets you used to getting hit with a heavy rattan stick disguised as a sword-like object, with safety rules and armor. Most martial arts classes get you used to “fighting” with both explicit and implicit rules and safety measures so you don’t break your partners. Even MMA has extensive safety regulations. Experience counts for a lot. Experience with killing and maiming people is something that, unless you’re in the military or a criminal, none of us has.

Any knight has been through battles. Lots of ‘em. As a squire, he would have both observed combat and may have been involved in the battles in some way himself. Play for this class was barely distinguishable from battle. Hunting, tourneys, games of skill and strength were routine pursuits. They were also effectively the police and national guard. If there was a bar fight, for example, it was pretty much their job to stop it.

Now on one side, there’s your average cubicle dweller, whose idea of “exercise” is to jog a couple of miles and maybe lift some moderately heavy weights. On the other side, there’s a guy who probably was in more fights by the age of 15 than any of us ever has in his entire life, and who has killed dozens, if not hundreds, in physical combat. Not all of his fights were in armor and with weapons. It is highly likely that he had been in life and death fights without being armed, and like I said earlier, recreation for these guys was basically brawling.

I have no reason to believe that they did training much different hundreds of years ago than the traditions that have been handed down from that time. Even in the dedicated sword schools, there are unarmed techniques, and in many of them, you learn the unarmed stuff first, before you even get to hold a sword or sword-like object; one of the overlaps between Western and Eastern martial arts is sparring with wooden swords. Grappling and even striking was integrated into the combat training, as shown by extant training manuals. Going from what I know about similar manuals in Eastern martial arts, a lot of the details of what was known didn’t make it into writing. The comments and drawings are more of a broad-strokes guideline to support memory.

So, he’s got experience, he does have training, and if he’s a knight, he has survived literally years of people trying to kill him — and years of his peers trying to get him killed doing dangerous shit like going boar hunting with a spear. The most inept out of shape knight in Europe would easily be more than a match for more than 90% of the populace now. People with training and physical ability might, just might survive. Everyone else is a corpse waiting to happen.

[toofs]

So our Teutonic Knight is an skilled martial artist, experienced in killing humans. What if the ‘you’ in the op isn’t me, but a real modern day bad motherfucker. I am talking about a genuine, serious Bad Mofo, also skilled and experienced in the art of killing humans. A Gurkha. A Gurkha like Bishnu Shrestha.

I say our knight is fucked.

[Una_Persson]

@Scumpup

I’d say that for the majority of board members, the choice of weapon is immaterial. Barring some shitass luck, they are going to get killed. Those who have some familiarity with some type of weapon should go ahead and choose it. They are also most likely going to get killed, too. I chose the crossbow for myself because it is a type of weapon with which I am familiar and with which I practice. If you are familiar with swords, you should pick one.

I’ve seen you make fun of SCA people, but a lot of them really do study and work out quite a bit with the weapons, and while there is no real risk of death there is a lot of attention paid to avoiding serious pain.

I’ve been trained not in the SCA but by a weapons master who has been fighting rapier and smallsword for decades. I’m also been taught in more than swordfighting; smallsword is an art of dirty tricks as well. We practice with distraction, hand-to-hand grappling, disarming, using a dagger or cloak, going for the low blows and cheap shots, etc. We don’t fight with rattan or wooden weapons, we fight with real weapons with real weight and feel, but which have their edges blunted and tips blunted and covered. They still leave ugly bruises, can cut leather, and as I saw last month, break bones.

We’re talking about an unarmed, unarmored knight here, right? Come on - give me my sharpened Del Tin smallsword - the same as the blunt one I’ve practiced with for years and years - and I can give myself at least even odds against any unarmed,unarmored opponent you can think up. It’s incredibly light and fast, and I’d reckon I’d poke him full of a half dozen holes, some of which would be fatal, before he could get to me.

An average Medieval knight isn’t a Marvel Comics superhero. He’s a man who has some hard training and hard practical experience, but unarmed versus armed to someone who has any training is a dubious fight at best. And IMO said knight, if he’s any sort of real-life badass, would recognize immediately that charging someone with a sword who at least takes a proper fighting stance, while he’s unarmed and unarmored, is suicide. If he had any sense at all he’d run for his own weapon(s) first. Even newbies can be astonishingly lucky at times…

[MrDibble]

@Sleel

It’s not just being trained to fight, it’s the experience of fighting.

You’re making a big assumption about me, here. One that turns out to not be true.

Any knight has been through battles. Lots of ‘em.

I think this is another assumption you’re making.

They were also effectively the police and national guard. If there was a bar fight, for example, it was pretty much their job to stop it.

I think you’re mistaking Teutons for your regular “Lord of Thee Manore” kniggit. They were an armed occupation and genocidaire force more than anything.

On the other side, there’s a guy who probably was in more fights by the age of 15 than any of us ever has in his entire life, and who has killed dozens, if not hundreds, in physical combat.

I think you’re seriously overestimating how many people the average knight would have killed.

Not all of his fights were in armor and with weapons.

Another assumption.

It is highly likely that he had been in life and death fights without being armed,

I think you need some actual textual justification for that “highly likely”

and like I said earlier, recreation for these guys was basically brawling.

…and drinking, feasting, circle dancing and poetry recitations. Knowing the possibilities of a knight’s recreation tells us nothing about the actualities of it.

I have no reason to believe that they did training much different hundreds of years ago than the traditions that have been handed down from that time.

Neither do I - but the training I see in the Fechtbücher don’t scream “martial arts badass” to me.

Even in the dedicated sword schools, there are unarmed techniques, and in many of them, you learn the unarmed stuff first, before you even get to hold a sword or sword-like object; one of the overlaps between Western and Eastern martial arts is sparring with wooden swords. Grappling and even striking was integrated into the combat training, as shown by extant training manuals. Going from what I know about similar manuals in Eastern martial arts, a lot of the details of what was known didn’t make it into writing. The comments and drawings are more of a broad-strokes guideline to support memory.

I think you may mistake the purpose of a lot of the Fechtbücher - the ones I’m familiar with are not training manuals for war, they are for fencing schools or personal use, and I don’t think you can rightly extrapolate what the average Teutonic knight’s training regime was like from manuals geared to prepping people for judicial duels. Plus they’re all from a different cultural setting from the frontier Teutons, at least. It’d be like imagining the training of a Scottish Highland warrior in 1600 extrapolated from Paradoxes of Defence

So, he’s got experience, he does have training, and if he’s a knight, he has survived literally years of people trying to kill him — and years of his peers trying to get him killed doing dangerous shit like going boar hunting with a spear. The most inept out of shape knight in Europe would easily be more than a match for more than 90% of the populace now. People with training and physical ability might, just might survive. Everyone else is a corpse waiting to happen.

I think this seriously overestimates the abilities of an unarmed, unarmoured, out-of-control man against an armed opponent who is ready and prepared for him.