# Young adult "problem novels" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 20, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224 "2004-10-20T15:15:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/21 "2004-10-20T20:38:49Z")
> [@Rysler](#): > > A librarian’s job is to understand what kids _want_ to read and give it to them. Long gone are the days when librarians cared about the _should_. It seems to me that there’s a disconnect going on…the campaigns to get children to read always emphasize the fantastic – reading as a way of transporting you to distant places & times, etc etc; when what YA’s (and, apparently, their educators) want to read are books about kids exactly like themselves. Does this jibe with your experience? ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/22 "2004-10-20T20:42:18Z")
**Rysler** , that’s an interesting website. I’m kind of amused that adventure stories are listed under realistic fiction, though. Uh-huh, _Treasure Island_’s very realistic… **delphica** , I’ll have to read _Walk Two Moons_. I’ve never heard of it before, but it sounds worth checking out. I heard somewhere that fiction is can be either a mirror or a window, i.e., that you can see your own life reflected in it or that you’ll be exposed to completely new perspectives/situations. Maybe that’s why these novels are so popular among teens. For some, it’s a mirror; for some, it’s a window. The Salon article didn’t make it clear what Feinberg thought should happen with “problem novels.” Does she think publishers shouldn’t produce them and libraries shouldn’t stock them? Should teachers stop assigning them? That seems foolish, because there are many well-written ones and obviously they certainly hold many students’ attention. Does she just want writers to cheer up? ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/23 "2004-10-20T21:09:48Z")
Oh, and **RealityChuck** , you can’t tease us like that. Is there really a character based on you in the novel? ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/24 "2004-10-20T21:12:22Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > It seems to me that there’s a disconnect going on…the campaigns to get children to read always emphasize the fantastic – reading as a way of transporting you to distant places & times, etc etc; when what YA’s (and, apparently, their educators) want to read are books about kids exactly like themselves. Does this jibe with your experience? Well, YAs don’t want to read realistic books as much as educators want them to – that’s where the disconnect lies. I’d say the readership of “crap” is much higher than the readership of good books. However, I agree with your point. One reason I stopped reading “adult” books and started reading below my reading level in high school was the lack of characters I could identify with. I’d read **Ender’s Game** and tried to make the leap to science fiction and couldn’t do it, because all of science fiction wasn’t about little boys. Realistic/relatable depictions of the youthful mindset are cloudy. The sexuality and peer relations and problem solving in Christopher Pike’s **[Fall into Darkness](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671009842/qid=1098306792/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-4106112-4040108)** is probably as realistic as anything by Judy Blume or Robert Cormier. And while the settings in **Ender’s Game** and **Harry Potter** are fantastic, being bullied and struggling with school are real experiences. I think the idea that works best is “Put _yourself_ in a fantastic/compelling situation,” rather than having things be too fantastic or too realistic. Having splashy colors, fantastic adventures, coolness, promises of darkness and emotion and titilation are probably just attempts to harness short attention spans, and like “problem novels” themselves, are an adult’s interpretation of a child’s desires. In my opinion, the best way to get a teenager to read anything is to treat them like an adult. Uh…does that answer your question? :smack: I just talked myself in a circle. **burundi** , how is Treasure Island not a realistic adventure novel? I don’t recall any speculative aspects. No magic, no spaceships, no vampires. It might be historical fiction, but it wasn’t written that way. It’s a plausible survival story, which fits into the classification as defined. Maybe not an authoritative definition, but I find it a reasonable working definition, which suits **Chronos** ’s needs. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/25 "2004-10-20T22:39:41Z")
> [@Rysler](#): > > …I think the idea that works best is “Put _yourself_ in a fantastic/compelling situation,” rather than having things be too fantastic or too realistic. > > Having splashy colors, fantastic adventures, coolness, promises of darkness and emotion and titilation are probably just attempts to harness short attention spans, and like “problem novels” themselves, are an adult’s interpretation of a child’s desires. In my opinion, the best way to get a teenager to read anything is to treat them like an adult. It just feels like the YA fascination with realistic/problem novels is somewhat solipsistic. I would tend to steer a YA toward something that _wasn’t_ about a time, place or people just like these times, this place, and me, as the best way to a mind-expanding experience that reading is “supposed” to be about. (I’m not a librarian nor an educator, so take my opinion FWIW.) ---
**Author:** ![wonder9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c57346/32.png) [@wonder9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonder9)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/26 "2004-10-21T01:01:55Z")
Ya know, my problem with those problem novels is this… THERE ARE OTHER KINDS OF BOOKS OUT THERE. How can kids be expected to develop a love of reading if the only books that seem to be sanctioned by schools, librarians and teachers are the heart-rending, difficult, borderline adult, often bitter, rarely funny… Classroom teachers tend to use these problem novels as the focus of their literacy program. If the only books that you are exposed to are these, why would you consider reading another book? The stories aren’t bad, it’s the unremitting focus on them as the only ‘valuable’ reading a kid could do. That any book a kid reads should have gravitas. Let’s get some comedy in there, some fantasy, some stories with no MESSAGE. Just for a change. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/27 "2004-10-21T02:51:05Z")
I remember all of us passing around _My Darling, My Hamburger_, (that and the V. C. Andrews incest fests) in 7th-8th grade. It has everything-sex, pregnancy, abortion and A girl pulls a thumb tack out of a bulletin board she’s pinned to, by a guy who’s trying to rape her, and shoves it into his neck! ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/28 "2004-10-21T02:57:41Z")
> [@burundi](#): > > Oh, and **RealityChuck** , you can’t tease us like that. Is there really a character based on you in the novel? Yes. Not only me, but many of my friends. The author based all her characters on the cast of a summer play we did. The character descriptions quite clearly indicate who was who, if you knew the group (so much so that she outed a couple of the guys). The plot was made up, but the location, the fact that we were doing “Anything Goes,” and even some of the dialog were taken from real events. My character was “Walt Feinberg.” ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/29 "2004-10-21T13:02:02Z")
> [@delphica](#): > > Big snicker at the line in the review that mentions that YA problem novels are “often the recipient of the American Library Association’s annual Newbery Award – the highest honor given to children’s chapter books.” I have been meaning for a while now to start a thread about this – are problem novels over-represented in the Newbery Awards? I don’t think they are … I mean, they ARE represented but so are non-problem books. It’s like saying “Books are often the recipient of the Newbery Award.” Well, yeah. I think you are missing her point. At least, the problem as seen by the professor of my Young Adult Literature class is that Newberry awards are supposed to be given to the best _Children’s_ chapter books and are often given to _Young Adult_ books. Is this the end of the world? Maybe (probably) not. How does one define a child for the purpose of defining children’s chapter books? It seems like the definition I was given goes up to age 14. How does one define a Young Adult? I don’t know what the bottom edge of YA-hood is(though it is younger than 14), but the older edge is 28, depending on the definition. While I read a lot of YA novels the first six months of being 29, it was caused by the course, not by interest in the novels. Though, reading YA novels made me aware that there are many enjoyable novels I wouldn’t have thought about reading on my own, so I’ve read several since the course ended. Still, many of the YA problem novels that win the Newberry are not aimed at 14 year olds. Perhaps some 14 year olds, but not neccesarily the average ones. My professor sees this less as a problem with any one award winner and more of a problem as a trend seems to form. It is ok to blur the line between children’s and YA novels or YA and adult at the line of the individual doing the reading. But if librarians, parents and teachers are pushing Newberry winners heavily, there should perhaps be a clearer understanding of what the intended audience of each book should be. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/30 "2004-10-21T13:19:20Z")
If you look at the list of [Newberry Medal Winners](http://www.ala.org/ala/alsc/awardsscholarships/literaryawds/newberymedal/newberywinners/medalwinners.htm) and [Nominations](http://www.ala.org/ala/alsc/awardsscholarships/literaryawds/newberymedal/newberyhonors/newberymedal.htm), most of the books that I can identify are aimed at the late elementary/middle school age. 8-14. Some of the books, like **The Giver** , might be aimed at the high end, but they mostly look like children’s chapter books to me. What am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/31 "2004-10-21T14:20:45Z")
**Rysler** , I didn’t mean to knock the website, which I do think is very interesting and helpful for the purposes of this discussion. It’s just that when I think of realism in books or movies, I think of “problems/situations/life as many people can reasonably expect to face it,” not just a lack of the paranormal. Treasure maps and Long John Silver just don’t fit in that category. I guess a more recent example would be _Holes_, which I think is a wonderful book, but I wouldn’t classify as realism. Obviously, YMMV, and it’s really not an important quibble to me. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **jsc1953** > _It just feels like the YA fascination with realistic/problem novels is somewhat solipsistic._ I see where you’re coming from and to some extent I agree with you, but teenagers _are_ known to be the slightest bit self-absorbed. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Judith\_Prietht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b19c9b/32.png) [@Judith\_Prietht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Judith_Prietht)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/32 "2004-10-21T14:45:40Z")
> [@wonder9](#): > > Ya know, my problem with those problem novels is this… > > THERE ARE OTHER KINDS OF BOOKS OUT THERE. > > How can kids be expected to develop a love of reading if the only books that seem to be sanctioned by schools, librarians and teachers are the heart-rending, difficult, borderline adult, often bitter, rarely funny… > > Classroom teachers tend to use these problem novels as the focus of their literacy program. If the only books that you are exposed to are these, why would you consider reading another book? The stories aren’t bad, it’s the unremitting focus on them as the only ‘valuable’ reading a kid could do. That any book a kid reads should have gravitas. Let’s get some comedy in there, some fantasy, some stories with no MESSAGE. Just for a change. I can sort of see your point, and I suppose I’m of the opinion that parents have an obligation to supplement what their children are assigned in school by teachers and librarians. As much as I disagree with what Feinberg’s saying in the article (and again, here’s the caveat that I haven’t read her book yet), at least she took the time and interest to check out her son’s reading list and try to find out what he was so disappointed in. I think that’s admirable. In my admittedly idealistic notion, I’d like to think that parents have the time and desire to read or re-read summer lists and assigned school lists with their kids, and then be able to discuss what’s going on in the books. I know that this is probably a rather unrealistic fantasy, but all I’m trying to get at is that I think it would be a shame if the only books a child is exposed to are those on assigned reading lists. If anyone has any information, I’d love to know how librarians and teachers actually go about compiling reading lists for children and young adults. Which is probably a topic for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/33 "2004-10-21T15:02:00Z")
> [@Rysler](#): > > If you look at the list of [Newberry Medal Winners](http://www.ala.org/ala/alsc/awardsscholarships/literaryawds/newberymedal/newberywinners/medalwinners.htm) and [Nominations](http://www.ala.org/ala/alsc/awardsscholarships/literaryawds/newberymedal/newberyhonors/newberymedal.htm), most of the books that I can identify are aimed at the late elementary/middle school age. 8-14. Some of the books, like **The Giver** , might be aimed at the high end, but they mostly look like children’s chapter books to me. What am I missing? Two obvious possibilities occur to me. One is that I am being a parrot, and repeating something which appeared to be a reasonable criticism by someone I respect but I don’t know enough about the books to judge fairly. The other possibility is that the key phrase in your comment is “that I can identify.” I have no idea how many of the books you can identify or which books are more appropriate for older audiences. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/34 "2004-10-21T16:33:39Z")
Newberry books are supposed to be an age group down from Young Adult. That being said, there’s definately been a sea change in the Newberry Awards in my lifetime - when I was a kid a Newberry book was much more likely to be fantasy, for example, or really different in some way. Now, while they might be fantasy or historical they tend to have a certain pattern to them - impoverished nonwhite child comes of age in politically correct manner. They’re still pretty much garaunteed to be _good_, don’t get me wrong - I especially liked **A Single Shard** from a few years ago about a poor medieval Korean boy who learns to be a potter, and of course Avi’s still writing Newberry books - but there’s a certain sameness to those chosen for the award these days. It’s hard to imagine Lloyd Alexander and Susan Cooper winning nowadays. (For that matter you might ntoe that Garth Nix has not won any for his most excellent **Sabriel** , etc, books - which seem much more like “old fashioned” Newberry books.) Dosen’t matter anyway, Newberry books are in that “intermediate reader” range. Although some of the best of them _should_\* really be young adult books. Interesting to note that some of the same books are in both sections, sometimes with different covers - I assume older kids don’t want to be seen reading a “kid’s book”. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/35 "2004-10-21T18:26:17Z")
I suppose I was fortunate because my for-school reading went directly from Catholic Reading texts to Steinbeck and Hemingway, though _The Pearl_ and _The Old Man and The Sea_ were slogs for twelve-year-olds accustomed to the short, simple stories in our texts. I am only familiar with Problem Books because my daughters read them, not always because they have to. But I wonder something: What is the appeal, especially to boys? I don’t want to read about Female Complaints now; why would a seventh grade boy want to read a Judy Blume book? But unless we expand the definition beyond the point of usefulness by including Harry Potter and _Treasure Island_ the authors are mostly women writing mostly for girls. Is this an accurate impression? ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/36 "2004-10-21T19:16:15Z")
There are plenty of [problem novels](http://www.uiowa.edu/~libsci/courses/144/SP2001_21144REALISTIC.html) for boys. **Holes** , apparently (I didn’t realize it was a problem novel), and novels by Rober Cormier and Gary Paulsen. Boys are a target audience, but a much smaller one, because boys aren’t seen as reading as much (because they have less to read). Feinberg’s article agrees with you, and my young adult lit course put a lot of emphasis on enticing boys to read. Teachers and librarians _want_ boys to read, but the connection is harder to make. Even the books on that list geared toward a masculine audience are more “adventure” than “problem.” I mean, if a boy had read **Treasure Island** and wanted to read something else like it, I might direct him toward **Hatchet** , or vice versa, but I agree that there’s no way to leap from that to **Forever**. It makes a lot more sense to recommend **The Golden Compass** or Terry Brooks. YA literature does not equal the problem novel. The problem novel is just one of many genres, and this [course](http://www.uiowa.edu/~libsci/courses/144/SP2001_21144.htm#Booklists), seems to have excellent book lists. I have no idea what the criteria are for choosing. Anything. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/37 "2004-10-21T19:27:08Z")
The links are greatly appreciated, **Rysler**! My to-read list expands… ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/38 "2004-10-21T19:47:29Z")
> [@Dung Beetle](#): > > The links are greatly appreciated, **Rysler**! My to-read list expands… You’re welcome! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/39 "2004-10-21T20:12:06Z")
Thanks! My twins (15 and fresh), well, their older sister (19) still likes the Problem Novels (worked for two years in the children’s section of the public library and read them all) and has moved into the adult equivalent, Chick Lit, especially Brit Chick Lit. One twin is another Anglophile and is sorta following her path plus anything by or about the Beatles and supernatural stuff (we saw it coming, this is the one who wore black all through second grade). The other twin is a slower reader but enjoyed _Ella Enchanted_ when she was forced to read it. She thinks she likes mysteries and now I have a list! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224/40 "2004-10-21T20:20:25Z")
In my day, the biggest problem was Henry Huggins being late for his paper route, or Gardenia eating all of Eddie Wilson’s pies. And that’s the way it was and we _liked_ it! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-adult-problem-novels/270224.md?page=3)