# young black guys & rolling up pants? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 15, 2002, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764 "2002-04-15T16:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![gingersnap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f04885/32.png) [@gingersnap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gingersnap)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/21 "2002-04-16T16:25:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monstro \* > > * * * > > Are you talking about wave caps? They’re nylon scalp caps that create waves in your hair. \*\* Nope, I’m talking about the plain old brown pantyhose a lot of them wear on their heads. ---
**Author:** ![girl27](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ad7895/32.png) [@girl27](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/girl27)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/22 "2002-04-16T17:01:46Z")
Another token white girl chimes in… I think the rolled up pants leg is symbolic of the chain gangs that black men would work on. Another thought is that perhaps it has something to do with the (umm… what’s the word?) THING that gets put on some offenders’ legs when they are on probation. Like a tracking device? It’s my understanding that alot of this stuff is very symbolic of the pight of the black man. No belts, pants hanging around your hips, that sort of thing. The pantyhose cap thing, though? I think that has something to do with prison – men would cut off their sleeves, tie one end in a knot, and wear it as a hat. But I’m not sure about pantyhose. An armed robbery symbol perhaps? But I don’t know 'bout that. ---
**Author:** ![girl27](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ad7895/32.png) [@girl27](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/girl27)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/23 "2002-04-16T17:03:32Z")
Plight, I meant Plight of the Black man. Not pight. ---
**Author:** ![girl27](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ad7895/32.png) [@girl27](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/girl27)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/24 "2002-04-16T17:03:52Z")
Plight, I meant Plight of the Black man. Not pight. Grrr. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/25 "2002-04-16T18:40:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pulykamell \* > \*\*Well, > > In Chicago (and I don’t know how true this is anymore) gangs were divided into two alliances: People and Folk. Think of it sort of as a National League and American League of Gangland. > > People gangs were traditionally associated with the left side (rolled-up pant legs, earrings in the left ear, that sort of stuff.) In Chicago, these gangs would be the Latin Kings, El Rukn (I don’t think they’re still around) , and the various -Lords (Vice Lords, Spanish Lords, Gaylords.) > > Folk gangs were associated with the right side. These would be all the Disciples spinoffs (Gangsta Disciples, Latin Disciples, etc.) and Two Six to name the predominant ones around my area. > > I don’t know whether these distinctions are national or a Chicago thing, but this was the case in Chicago in the 80s and early 90s at least. \*\* When I lived in the Midwest it was also the case that gangs identified their affiliation (generally with a particular side of town) by some sort of ornamentation or alteration to their clothing on one side of the body. ---
**Author:** ![peepthis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9d8465/32.png) [@peepthis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peepthis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/26 "2002-04-16T18:44:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gingersnap \* > \*\*Nope, I’m talking about the plain old brown pantyhose a lot of them wear on their heads. \*\* These aren’t pantyhose, white bread. These are called skull caps, or skullies. It’s a tight fitting nylon head cover that got popular again about 5 years ago. I’ve never seen anybody wearing actual pantyhose (and I lived in a very urban area), and I can’t imagine someone would substitute it for a skully since they only cost a couple dollars. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/27 "2002-04-16T19:13:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by girl27 \* > \*\* > The pantyhose cap thing, though? I think that has something to do with prison – men would cut off their sleeves, tie one end in a knot, and wear it as a hat. But I’m not sure about pantyhose. An armed robbery symbol perhaps? But I don’t know 'bout that. \*\* It has nothing to do with prison, nothing to do with armed robbery, nothing to do with anything remotely criminal. monstro was right: they’re simply worn to make their hair wavy. ---
**Author:** ![gingersnap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f04885/32.png) [@gingersnap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gingersnap)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/28 "2002-04-16T19:44:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by peepthis \* > \*\* > These aren’t pantyhose, white bread. These are called skull caps, or skullies. It’s a tight fitting nylon head cover that got popular again about 5 years ago. I’ve never seen anybody wearing actual pantyhose (and I lived in a very urban area), and I can’t imagine someone would substitute it for a skully since they only cost a couple dollars. \*\* Will all due respect, you’re just plain flat wrong. What a lot of the blacks around here wear are women’s pantyhose, knotted at the top and stretched over their heads. Sometimes they even leave part of the leg/waistband attached and it hangs off the back. It looks incredibly…stoopid. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/29 "2002-04-16T22:42:52Z")
Well, **gingersnap** , perhaps they use pantyhose because they can’t afford the real mccoy. Doesn’t make the trying-to-get-waves-in-your-hair explanation wrong. \*\* > [@](#): > > I think the rolled up pants leg is symbolic of the chain gangs that black men would work on. Another thought is that perhaps it has something to do with the (umm… what’s the word?) THING that gets put on some offenders’ legs when they are on probation. Like a tracking device? > > It’s my understanding that alot of this stuff is very symbolic of the pight of the black man. No belts, pants hanging around your hips, that sort of thing. > > The pantyhose cap thing, though? I think that has something to do with prison – men would cut off their sleeves, tie one end in a knot, and wear it as a hat. But I’m not sure about pantyhose. An armed robbery symbol perhaps? But I don’t know 'bout that.\*\* Your explanations are not grounded, **girl27**. Fads that are popularized by black young guys do not always have to have criminal explanations. I think you’re stretching a LOT, especially with regards to the whole “chain gang” thing. This isn’t an issue that requires psychoanalysis. Just like the whole belt-loop-chain, nose-piercing, purple-spiked-hair fads of the suburbs don’t require psychoanalysis. ---
**Author:** ![GopherGod72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@GopherGod72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GopherGod72)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/30 "2002-04-16T22:54:21Z")
…and for god sakes there not PANTY hose they are just HOSE… pantyhose would have 2 legs and crotch with cotton liner. I’ve never seen no crotch liner on no bruthas head! Though that does bring back fond memories of Nicholas Cage in “Raising Arizona” _snorttle_ ---
**Author:** ![GopherGod72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@GopherGod72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GopherGod72)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/31 "2002-04-16T22:56:05Z")
…son… you got a PANTY on your head… ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/32 "2002-04-17T01:42:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reeder \* > \*\*It’s a fad people. > > Compare it to ducktails, pet rocks, rubiks cube. It will pass. \*\* It will pass as new identifiers become popular, but calling it “just a fad” is whistling in the dark in many areas. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monstro \* > Just because it’s something a lot of young black guys do doesn’t it make it gang-related… > Your explanations are not grounded, girl27. Fads that are popularized by black young guys do not always have to have criminal explanations. The phenomenon is far from exclusive to young black men. The lack of direct incriminating symbolism is part of the game. They depend on the fact that its not a crime to wear a certain colored bandanna or roll a sleeve up. To those who recognize the patterns its no different than wearing a white sheet and a pointy white hood, its a uniform. We deal with plenty of little street lawyers who demand that we cannot refuse them service because of their failure to comply with the park dress code. We found that debating with them was futile and shift straight to “are you refusing to leave”. About 90% of the time the last ditch defense on their part is race, which is funny because we have tossed quite a few of the “pretty fly for a white guy” crowd and they love to pull out the " Man, why you sweatin’ me, we all homies, you’re white too, whats wrong with you, ain’t you got no loyalty to your blood" :rolleyes: So in a nutshell monstro. Try doing a little work in the biz. If you had you would not dismiss this so casually. ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/33 "2002-04-17T02:07:02Z")
Why is anyone referring to themselves as a ‘token’ white person? There’s nothing ‘token’ about white people on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/34 "2002-04-17T02:27:53Z")
\*\* > [@](#): > > So in a nutshell monstro. Try doing a little work in the biz. If you had you would not dismiss this so casually.\*\* I don’t have to do any work in the business, hon. (So in other words, please keep your condescending tone to yourself). I am black, born and raised in an urban setting, and I know the fads and the culture that we’re talking about. I don’t have the perspective of someone who’s watched a little too much COPS or who’s an arm-chair criminologist. I don’t have to find symbolism in things in order to objectify people who I don’t understand. You walk into any high school and you’ll find kids with their pants-legs rolled up. Hell, I’ve seen the college kids where I go to school with their pants-legs rolled up, many of them white. Are they all gang-members? Or wannebes? No one has cited ANY evidence that shows this behavior is linked to gangs, and yet we’re all supposed to swallow this as truth. I’m sorry, but I’m not. I’m tired of hearing black kids being equated with violent gangs, especially in a thread where most of the posters are “token” whites. Gangs DO were a uniform, but the pants-leg thing IS NOT a part of it. And I challenge anyone to produce evidence that says it is. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Mick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@The\_Mick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Mick)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/35 "2002-04-17T04:05:18Z")
here’s the token white guy who grew up in a barrio with plenty of blacks as well: the pant thing, nowadays, is just fashion. I know that back in the days (90-94) there were a few black gangs around here that did the pant-rolling thing to identify themselves, but once it became part of the popular culture, they stopped. I dunno, man, I think that the pant-rolling thing looks dumb as hell. It’s got nothing to do with the “plight of the black man,” though. It’s just fashion. Idiotic fashion if you ask me, but to each his own. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/36 "2002-04-17T05:28:21Z")
[here](http://www.gang-busters.com/html/clothing.html) notice the picture… [from here](http://www.lapdonline.org/bldg_safer_comms/gi_gangs/gangs_identify.htm) > [@](#): > > upturned cuffs are also indicators of possible gang involvement. > [@](#): > > I am black, born and raised in an urban setting, and I know the fads and the culture that we’re talking about. Uh ok I am white, and originally from a small very conservative town. So the fact that I talk to these guys and work around them constantly is irrelevent? My safety depends on these cues. Does it mean that every kid with a pant leg rolled up is a gang member, no, and I apologize if I insinuated that earlier. It is one of many signs we look for. Generally we will ask them to remove or conceal the item of clothing or change the way its worn (ex: straighten the hat out, conceal bandannas, conceal gang tattoos or logos, etc) On a weekly basis we cross paths with one or more of the following: Fresno Police Dept Fresno County Sherrifs Office M.A.G.E.C. Team (Multi Agency Gang Enforcement Consortium) Fresno County Juvenile Parole They all tell us that its a sign… I am not BS’ing about the amount of gang presence I encounter. Maybe the pant rolling is more of a local phenomenon here than the rest of the country. In my experience, about 75% of the one rolled up pant leg we see are adverising affilliation or support/sympathy for a gang. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/37 "2002-04-17T09:29:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monstro \* > > * * * > > Gangs DO were a uniform, but the pants-leg thing IS NOT a part of it. And I challenge anyone to produce evidence that says it is. \*\* Well, aside from my personal experience which seems to indicate this is true (although colors and various hand-signs played a much more important part in gang identification.) [Look here](http://www.ci.madison.wi.us/police/pf.html) [Or here](http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4111/nogangs.html) [And apparently it’s not just a Chicago thing.](http://www.gangunit.com/GangBasics.htm) Plus there are hundreds of other sites that will agree. Look [here](http://www.google.com/search?q=folk+people+gangs+chicago+left+right) for a sampling. Anyhow, I’m not saying this is why they do it now, or this is why they do it everywhere. In my neighborhood, it certainly was a sign of gang affiliation (just as 5- and 6-pointed stars also indicate Folk/People affiliation.) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/38 "2002-04-17T14:01:59Z")
From the first article cited by **pulykamell** : \*\* > [@](#): > > a left pant leg rolled up\*\* As I said earlier, most of the kids I know roll up their right leg. This was the style first popularized by LL Cool J. The left-pant-leg thing is something that is definitely more site-specific and I concede that in conjunction with other traits, it is also gang-related. But the pant-leg-rolled-up phenomenom as a whole is not gang-related (just like the body-piercing fad is not related to devil worshipping, even though devil worshippers may have disproportionately more body piercings). It would be horrible for anyone to prejudge a youngster as a gang banger just because he’s got one leg rolled up on his pants. It’s this generalization that I’m protesting. ---
**Author:** ![booklover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@booklover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/booklover)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/39 "2002-04-17T16:55:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by White Lightning \* > \*\*Why is anyone referring to themselves as a ‘token’ white person? There’s nothing ‘token’ about white people on the SDMB. \*\* No, I’m a token white person in my neighborhood—I know SDMB is probably predominantly white. ---
**Author:** ![Judith\_Prietht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b19c9b/32.png) [@Judith\_Prietht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Judith_Prietht)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764/40 "2002-04-17T17:48:41Z")
Re: the “pantyhose on the head phenomenon” Is it a do rag? Google on “do rag”; I got shut down out of here when I tried to post the link earlier, and it also took forever so I am loathe to try again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-black-guys-rolling-up-pants/103764.md?page=3)