I’m not a practicing religious kinda’ guy, but my take on Ramsey is that he just integrates his religious faith into his whole life, and that includes finances. I don’t get the vibe that he is trying to use Jesus! to sell his books; rather his books include his personal perspective, which appears to be some variety of Protestant Christian faith.
Let’s be honest: to many middle Americans, couching your communication in Christian language makes it easier to understand and integrate with their everyday life.
On the issue of his using religion to “sell” his books: I just hit www.daveramsey.com . The only mention of religion on the front page is an offer to provide his curriculum to churches, an offer he also makes to non-religious organizations.
I really shouldn’t have accused everyone else of being ethically unsound, and that was unfair on my part.
Suze Orman certainly wants to sell you all kinds of crap, including some stuff that really is of marginal utility, but she’s not genuinely unethical. Her focus is as much pop-psychology as financial planning, but for many people, the problem IS psychology, not financial acumen.
Robert Kiyosaki, now… HE is definitely 1000% scammer, and less ethical than your average pimp.
I still have a problem with it. I think his advice is pretty good, works well for a lot of people - and hey - if it works for you - all good. But I don’t consider his approach to be ethical - but I find public religion to be distasteful. I sort of figure anyone making that big a deal of how good a Christian they are, shouldn’t be a millionaire.
My biggest problem with Ramsey is that he advocates putting off saving for retirement until you have your debts paid off.
A dollar saved pre-tax is not the same as a dollar spent toward paying down debt, and while there are no limits on the amount you can put toward debt each year there are limits on the amount you can put into various retirement accounts.
For most people, delaying saving for retirement is never a good idea unless you are facing forclosure or garnishment of wages.
For an illustration, look at jimb’s post on the ClarkHoward message boards.
Heh. I think we have the whole discworld crew here. Bill Door, Sam Vimes, Angua, and Nanny Ogg come to mind and I’m sure there are more I’m forgetting.
Why can’t Christians be millionaires? He gives %10 to his church plus more to charities. In theory Christian millionaires can do lots of good with their money. If you give it all away then you have made a one-time donation. If you manage and invest your money wisely you can do good with it throughout your whole life.
I can do a lot more for my church and for charity if I am a millionaire than if I am broke.
He doesn’t hide the fact that he is a Christian but he doesn’t use that fact to sell his products either. I am very familiar with his system and anyone can use it, it is sound financial advice whether you are religious or not. We don’t follow it to the letter but it has changed the way we handle money.
Anyway, I don’t want to hijack this thread with a discussion of Christians and money management, just wanted to address that. I personally don’t care if people follow his plan or not, and of course people can choose to give business to anyone for any reason they choose.
Ramsey’s advice works best for the “subprime credit” crowd; it’s engineered to keep you from doing really, really stupid things like borrowing your way into bankruptcy.
If you’ve got a real good income, very manageable debt and good fiscal discipline his advice becomes less useful.
His other dumb idea is “pay off your smallest debts first, so you see the progress you’re making” rather than “pay off your highest-interest debts first”.
For Ramsey, financial management is as much a mind-game with yourself as with the numbers.
Still, I’d gladly pay for a couple grand to go back in time and hand my 17-year-old self a copy of his book.
Oh, Christians can be millionaires. They just can’t do so while appearing to be holier than thou (which Ramsey comes off as to me - but not to others), using Jesus to sell their products (which I perceive he does, if you don’t that is fine, but my perception is that he is specifically using his Christianity to market to Christians - yes, anyone else can use it, “but aren’t you more comfortable getting your advice (read: giving your business) to another Christian”, and not come off a hypocrit. 10% is a big deal when you make $18,000 a year. 10% for a millionaire…that means he isn’t going beyond the tithe minimum - not generous Christianity.
This is a perception thing. I’m not saying Ramsey is bad - his program has done a lot of good for a lot of people and if it works, go for it. I just that I find it funny for him to be held up as ethical, when he trips my ethical triggers. But then ethics are relative.
I think one of the reasons it can make a difference when it comes to financial planning is that Christians are going to be interested in planning while including tithe and offerings, and most financial planners are going to tell you not to give anything until you are out of debt. So it does make sense for him to market his planning as a Christian, since his planning includes tithe. Although I have heard him speak on the subject and he is very careful to say that he does not have the authority to tell people they must tithe, but if that is your belief he tells you how to incorporate it.
I do understand why people don’t like him, and he does mostly deal with people who are in serious trouble, as in facing bankruptcy and that kind of advice is different than what most people are looking for. Like I said we don’t follow his ‘envelope system’ or anything but I agree with his basic principles and that as a whole Americans are just too used to having a lot of debt and it is too easy to get into trouble living a “normal American life.”
Also, tithe to the church is the 10%, many Christians do give above that to charities, those are offerings. I am sure he gives more than 10% total. I have never heard him say you should give him your business over someone else because he is a Christian.
Anyway, like I said I don’t want to hijack further and so I’ll drop it now. Also I am not a rabid Dave Ramsey fan or anything and I am sure he does not need me to defend him. After all he has the comfort of his millions I hate the “send me your money because I am a Christian” Kooks as much as (or more than) anyone, but I think he’s one of the ok ones, that’s all.
I have read two of his books, Rich dad Poor Dad, and Rich Dad’s prophecy, why do you think he is a scammer? He is not a get out of debt type, he is more of grow you net worth focus. Some of his advise makes sense to me at least.
I hate the “send me your money because I am a Christian” Kooks as much as (or more than) anyone, but I think he’s one of the ok ones, that’s all.