# Young girl beaten in anti-Semitic attack; French fine her parents! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 3, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299 "2003-04-03T20:53:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/81 "2003-04-04T17:15:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Furthermore, the level of Arab on Jew violence in France today is a lot higher than white on black violence in this country. Cite? > [@](#): > > Note that the case generated wide media attention (“There were twenty journalists present”) Presumably the media saw this as a hate crime, not just a playground spat between school children. For all these reasons, I think it’s highly likely that this really was a hate crime. Not an entirely reasonable assumption. The journalists could well have been there because they knew a certain percentage of their readership would like to see them expand on the potential hate crime aspect of the story, whether or not the incident did, in fact, represent an instance of anti-Semitism. Plus Lord knows the parents seem to have been working that angle. The anti-Semitic aspect of the story makes great sensationalist copy, whether or not it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/82 "2003-04-04T17:29:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*2. I think it was unreasonable for the judge to find the suit to be meritless. \*\* And your basis for that is…what? No doubt you have access to the complete facts of the case, and are about to cite them with reasoning. You are beyond presumptious. Shit, have a look at the rest of your post: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*…probably…IMHO…seems overwhelmingly likely… can’t absolutely prove…every indication…was…AFAIK…Presumably…I think it’s highly likely that this really was a hate crime. \*\* And that, really, is your entire argument. With no evidence, basis in fact or reasoning you have arrived at the conclusion you wanted to. It was a hate crime, because you think so. The judge was wrong, because you think so. Damn those French, damn their antisemitism, their hateful arabs, and biased judges - why can’t the world see them for the prejudiced bastards they are? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/83 "2003-04-04T20:16:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*You have a point, **DCU**. As you say, the judge found that the suit was meritless. OTOH, there are two rebuttals. > > 1. The situation is unclear because the fine had multiple reasons. The judge also said that the parents were to blame for giving undue publicity to the case and for insulting the Principal and Vice Principal. \*\* Why does this make the case less clear? It’s a combination of factors – the judge is saying “not only did you bring a meritless suit, you also brought undue publicity to the case (which makes the court’s job harder), plus you essentially slandered the defendants unnecessarily; thus, you get a nice, big fine.” This is not unusual. A person who brings a meritless suit but doesn’t otherwise interfere with the administration of the court’s business probably deserves a smaller fine than a person who does so. To analogize: we are in Iraq for several reasons – suspicions that Saddam has WMD; a fear that Iraq aids terrorists; a desire to free the Iraqi people; and a need to force compliance with the cease-fire agreement. It baffles my mind when antiwar posters ask “which reason is the _real_ reason?” when, in fact, they are _all_ real reasons, reasons that in toto add up to a compelling case for military intervention. \*\* > [@](#): > > 1. I think it was unreasonable for the judge to find the suit to be meritless. The finding looks weird. In this country, if a schoolgirl traveled to another school to take an exam, and she was beaten up by a group of students there, the parents could probably win a suit against the school for failing to protect the girl – especially if the Minister of Education had recently sent out a warning about that sort of thing! Even if the parents lost the suit, it would be incredible for a judge to find the suit totally without merit. \*\* I see. So now you’re an expert on French law, including the degree to which that country recognizes negligence liability for school prinicipals for afterschool fights? You, who has heard not one sentence of actual testimony, read one brief, or otherwise been made familiar with the facts of the case (outside of Google-translating a short article about it), are in a better position to judge whether or not the case was meritless? I bow before your psychic powers, O great one. :rolleyes: \*\* > [@](#): > > I didn’t mean to address hate crime legislation. (BTW I have mixed feelings about that issue.) Saying that hate crimes exist is not to say that hate-crime legislation is the right way to deal with the problem.\*\* No, which is why I said you were “close to” reversing on that issue, because you’re making an argument disturbingly similar to the one made by hate crimes proponents. At the very least, you appear to give credence to the argument that the incidence of white-on-black crime is proof of rampant hate crime. \*\* > [@](#): > > True. Still, IMHO the conclusion seems overwhelmingly likely. \*\* Sure, if you assume a bevy of facts not in evidence. :rolleyes: \*\* > [@](#): > > Of course, a couple of newspaper articles can’t absolutely prove it was a hate crime, but there’s every indication that it was. Note that _three_ Jewish girls were beaten up by a _group_ of Arab students. AFAIK the attackers didn’t know the victims, since they went to different schools.\*\* So what? A group of girls was beaten up by a larger group of students from another school. Prove it was motivated by religious hatred (rather than, say, interschool rivalry) outside of some vague gut feeling. \*\* > [@](#): > > Furthermore, the level of Arab on Jew violence in France today is a lot higher than white on black violence in this country. \*\* Cite? \*\* > [@](#): > > Note that the case generated wide media attention (“There were twenty journalists present”) Presumably the media saw this as a hate crime, not just a playground spat between school children. \*\* Or the media saw a chance to spin a playground dustup into news by playing the race card to garner more newspaper sales and television ratings. But that’d _never_ happen, would it? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/84 "2003-04-04T20:31:06Z")
Why not just cut to the chase, people: 1. The French are _eviiiiiiiiiiiil_ because they do not support George W. Bush’s war against Iraq. Those bastards! 2. The family being fined here is Jewish, and therefore (in **december’s** eyes) above all reproach, real or imagined. 3. Therefore, anyone who doesn’t see that 1 + 2 = EXTREME OUTRAGE is doubtlessly a closet French anti-Semite who yearns for the return of the gas chambers. :rolleyes: /sarcasm, for those who may have missed the point. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/85 "2003-04-04T23:37:53Z")
**december** , your attitude only makes it that much harder to get support for REAL cases of anti-semitism. You’re the Jesse Jackson of the SDMB when it comes to anti-Semitism. (_goes off singing the Asshat Song, to the tune of “Ode to Joy”_) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/86 "2003-04-05T01:39:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > 2. The family being fined here is Jewish, and therefore (in **december’s** eyes) above all reproach, real or imagined. :rolleyes: > /sarcasm, for those who may have missed the point. It’s true that it upsets me when a mob beats up three Jewish school girls. I guess **rjung** in his wisdom knows that the three girls were really the ones at fault, and I’m a bigot for being upset. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/87 "2003-04-05T02:35:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*It’s true that it upsets me when a mob beats up three Jewish school girls. I guess **rjung** in his wisdom knows that the three girls were really the ones at fault, and I’m a bigot for being upset. My apologies. \*\* :rolleyes: It is not the fault of the girls that they were beat up. It is the fault of the girl’s parents for bringing a meritless lawsuit, for drumming up unwarranted publicity for that suit, and for accusing the defendants of anti-semitism. Evidently you cannot distinguish between these two things, which is pretty damned pathetic. And **rjung** ’s comments were clearly directed at the latter instance. ---
**Author:** ![lightingtool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/57b2e6/32.png) [@lightingtool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lightingtool)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/88 "2003-04-05T02:49:06Z")
**december**. I am new here, and this is the first time I’ve had the pleasure of hearing you point out the troubles of the world. If I may, “BRAVO!!” The way you cunningly quote people to prove a point that they haven’t made, the way you quote an article that you can’t read, and the fabulous form you have shown in you frantic backpedaling show a wit beyond reproach! Please, continue to post, so that I may continue to learn how to make a complete and utter jackass of myself. > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## Originally posted by rjung 2. The family being fined here is Jewish, and therefore (in december’s eyes) above all reproach, real or imagined. /sarcasm, for those who may have missed the point. > > It’s true that it upsets me when a mob beats up three Jewish school girls. I guess rjung in his wisdom knows that the three girls were really the ones at fault, and I’m a bigot for being upset. My apologies. Stunning. Truly stunning. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/89 "2003-04-05T03:01:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*It’s true that it upsets me when a mob beats up three Jewish school girls. I guess **rjung** in his wisdom knows that the three girls were really the ones at fault, and I’m a bigot for being upset. My apologies. \*\* Good Goddamn. And people say _I’m_ hypersensitive on Jewish issues (not here, as I don’t discuss it much here). **December** , this is the _second_ person in this thread, minimum, who you’ve implied has anti-semitic motives simply because they disagreed with you and called you on obvious bullshit. Knock it the fuck off. Anti-semitism is horrible and your ongoing attempt to use the idea to mean “Someone who disagrees with me.” is more than a little nauseating and it undermines the term so that when it’s used to describe a real situation, people don’t care. With the exception of a shared interest in comic books, IIRC **Rjung** and I disagree on just about everything (not that that’s a bad). So please understand what it means when I say “He is completely right and you are 100% wrong…and being more than a little assholish by trying to tar anyone who disagrees with you with the same ‘anti-semitic creep who wants little girls to be beaten up’ brush” Frankly, I’m seriously considering asking the mods to consider if your ongoing attempts to characterize anyone who disagrees with you as an anti-semite falls under the “hate-speech” rule or the “don’t be a jerk” rule. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/90 "2003-04-05T03:12:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*:rolleyes: > > It is not the fault of the girls that they were beat up. > > It is the fault of the girl’s parents for bringing a meritless lawsuit, for drumming up unwarranted publicity for that suit, and for accusing the defendants of anti-semitism. > > Evidently you cannot distinguish between these two things, which is pretty damned pathetic. \*\* **DCU** , you well know that a judge’s finding is not necessarily correct. It’s true that the judge said the girl’s parents brought a meritless lawsuit, drummed up unwarranted publicity for that suit, and accused the defendants of anti-semitism. However, I think the judge was wrong. You may think the judge was correct, based on the facts as reported. You’re entitled to your opinion. Note that the reporter found the judge’s finding shocking. The 20 reporters who attended the hearing evidently thought it was, or might be, an instance of anti-semitism. Also, note this quote from the google translation of the [March 12 article](http://216.239.37.120/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&langpair=fr%7Cen&u=http://www.proche-orient.info/xjournal_racism_rep.php3%3Fid_article%3D10732&prev=/language_tools). > [@](#): > > As of their arrival, the remarks fuse: "They wear a skirt. They are the Jewish ones ". When you add this comment to the fact that a group of Arab students attacked these 3 Jewish girls, the warning from the Minister of Education, and the pattern of attacks by Arabs against Jews in France, I see a very strong case that it was a hate crime. I think one could get a conviction under hate crime statutes in the US based on these facts. Don’t you? If you or any other poster believe the attack was _not_ anti-semitism, I invite you to support you POV, beyond just saying there’s no way to be sure. **Fenris** , **rjung** made a sarcastic comment and I responded with a sarcastic comment. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/91 "2003-04-05T03:25:07Z")
And let’s don’t forget the two ( **wring** and **TwistofFate** ) he implied were racist not five posts in on page 1, **Fenris**. Obviously someone who disagrees with **december** is either racist or anti-semitic. I don’t recall as **december** apologized to **TwistofFate** for this remark, either: “I assume the two of you were equally unsympathic when Rosa Parks broke the law by not sitting in the back of the bus. :mad:” And notice how quickly **december** shuts up when **Fang** responds to [b[december\*\*'s comment " I greatly appreciate your input, Fang. You didn’t quite say the attack was almost surely anti-semitic, given what’s going on in France, but I assume you would support that POV." with “No I wouldn’t.” Also note the wording of **december** ’s post: “didn’t quite say … almost surely anti-semitic.” When in point of fact **Fang** never came close to saying that and indeed said **the exact opposite** : “ **december** : As a Jew and dual American-French citizen who is particularly disgusted at the level of anti-Semitism in France (e.g. Chirac’s comments to the effect that it’s not a problem), I have to say, _you are way off base…_” BTW, **december** , starting a response with “ **tomndebb** is just wrong” is a _really_ bad way to start a response, especially given your history on this MB posting facts, logic and unbiased cites. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/92 "2003-04-05T03:25:27Z")
Will anyone address the issue of whether the alleged attackers were in fact convicted of anything at all? I don’t see anything referring to a conviction in the article, so if there’s been no conviction even for assault, I don’t see how it’s logically possible to support that it was a hate crime. So no, unless a huge chunk of the story is missing (admittedly quite possible), I don’t see how these facts would support a hate crime conviction even in the U.S. \*\*december, [/f] if you see evidence beyond a reasonable doubt in this mess, I think you need new glasses. Even if you think there is a severe and statistically abnormal pattern of anti-Semitic attacks (a POV which you have not supported with anything more than a couple of anecdotes), this is still not evidence of any sort that the individual alleged attackers were motivated by racial hatred. As an earlier poster pointed out, how do you know this wasn’t simply a fight over a boy, or a school rivalry, or something else much less sinister? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/93 "2003-04-05T03:34:56Z")
**Eva Luna** , from what I have been able to understand in this thread, there was no conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/94 "2003-04-05T03:37:11Z")
Welll, I wasn’t sure whether the alleged assailants were in fact found not guilty, or whether the article simply didn’t mention the outcome of the assault trial. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/95 "2003-04-05T03:47:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eva Luna \* > \*\*Plus did you ever think that drivel like this lawsuit, not to mention your entire OP, are exactly the kind of thing that _contribute_ to anti-Semitic sentiment? \*\* You’re kidding right? I’ve been whooshed? The lawsuit (and December’s OP) contribute to anti-Semitic sentiment? How? As in, those uppity French Jews really ought to mind their place, right? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/96 "2003-04-05T03:55:51Z")
No, more as in “God, those annoying pro-semites! Damn them and their Jewish friends! Why I oughta…” For example, this might happen when those pro-semites shamessly spread misinformation and then fling accusations of racism and anti-semitism when challenged. Just an example, mind you. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/97 "2003-04-05T03:56:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Who\_me? \* > \*\ ***december** , you’re saying that you should be given a break since, even though your OP was total bullshit, there are problems with anti-semtism in France. \*\* Problems with anti-Semitism in France? That’s an interesting way to put it. Especially since the last time there were “problems with anti-Semitism in France” large numbers of people were forcibly removed to fun places like Bergen-Belsen. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/98 "2003-04-05T04:06:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*You’re kidding right? I’ve been whooshed? The lawsuit (and December’s OP) contribute to anti-Semitic sentiment? How? > > As in, those uppity French Jews really ought to mind their place, right? \*\* This is really funny. Let me try to explain. **december** is Jewish. The girl’s parents are Jewish. For that matter, I’m Jewish, so I will have to laugh my head off if you or anyone else accuse me of antisemitism. IMO **december** and the assaulted girl’s parents are both manipulating a horrible situation to serve their own quasi-political ends, by attempting to show how “their people” are unjustly victimized by French authorities, who are doing nothing to protect them from hate crimes. There has been nothing presented through the entire course of this debacle that the incident in question constituted an assault serious enough to merit a criminal conviction, by current French legal standards, let alone any evidence presented to establish the motivation of the alleged assailants, antisemitic or otherwise. No assault, no motive established, therefore no hate crime, therefore no failure of school authorities to protect a Jew from a hate crime, therefore no basis for a civil lawsuit against school authorities, therefore no reason for the parents to complain to the media about the way in which the baseless lawsuit was handled by the court. Therefore one pissed-off judge, and as a result, one large fine. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/99 "2003-04-05T04:08:32Z")
Hit “post” too early; sorry. I meant to add to my post above that, well, it doesn’t reflect well on the Jewish people at large when members of the Jewish community distory the truth and make false accusations to serve their own political ends. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/100 "2003-04-05T04:11:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > \*\*No, more as in “God, those annoying pro-semites! Damn them and their Jewish friends! Why I oughta…” > > For example, this might happen when those pro-semites shamessly spread misinformation and then fling accusations of racism and anti-semitism when challenged. > > Just an example, mind you. \*\* God those annoying abolitionists! Damn them and their Negro friends! Why I oughta… Just an example, mind you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299.md?page=6)