# Young girl beaten in anti-Semitic attack; French fine her parents! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 3, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299 "2003-04-03T20:53:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/101 "2003-04-05T04:34:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eva Luna \* > \*\*Hit “post” too early; sorry. I meant to add to my post above that, well, it doesn’t reflect well on the Jewish people at large when members of the Jewish community distory the truth and make false accusations to serve their own political ends. \*\* You didn’t answer the question. How does the parents’ lawsuit _contribute_ to Anti-Semitic sentiment in France? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/102 "2003-04-05T04:34:57Z")
**milroyj** , I think that was rather my point. Also, if my post came off as condoning the actions I described, let me make the obvious effort now to say that I don’t support that train of reasoning, just that I can see how, given a different mindset from mine, how that might happen. 's that clear it up?🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/103 "2003-04-05T04:38:31Z")
Gah. Mind falling asleep. “I don’t support that train of reasoning” … edit to add “reasoning as it is borne out in actions”. IE they are allowed to believe something like that but I would condemn its physical results. Because, of course, people are allowed to believe whatever they want as long as … well, y’know:) ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/104 "2003-04-05T05:41:51Z")
Suprisingly, december beats once again on the drums of racism with tenous accusations that don’t hold up upon further examination. And suprisingly, yet again the example he uses to further his (however noble it may be) cause doesn’t hold water. I’m shocked. I commend your crusade against racism, but do your homework before you fling accusations at entire nations (France in this case) or entire political parties (Democrats for not supporting an ultra conservative hispanic judge). mmmkay? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/105 "2003-04-05T06:20:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*When you add this comment to the fact that a group of Arab students attacked these 3 Jewish girls, the warning from the Minister of Education, and the pattern of attacks by Arabs against Jews in France, I see a very strong case that it was a hate crime. I think one could get a conviction under hate crime statutes in the US based on these facts. Don’t you? \*\* Even if I grant that there’s a “pattern of attacks by Arabs against Jews in France” it **does not** mean that _every_ attack by an Arab on a Jew is a hate-crime. \*\* > [@](#): > > **Fenris** , **rjung** made a sarcastic comment and I responded with a sarcastic comment. \*\* Gaaahh…anti-semite is not a “sarcastic comment”. It is (or should be, despite your repeated attempts to water it down) the equivilant of a full nuclear strike. Use it only when it applies, dammit! Can you even grasp how damning this statement was to/about you? How it shredded any credibility you might have had? “I tap-danced around saying the actual words, but I called him a racist/anti-semite as sarcasm.” There are some terms…some phrases…that should _not_ be tossed around for hyperbole. Anti-semite is one. Look: you got **Eva** and me. We’re both Jews and we’re at pretty much polar opposites of the political spectrum. And we’re both telling you _the same thing_. What does that say? Fenris ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/106 "2003-04-05T07:29:02Z")
That you obviously haven’t read the scholarly, well-referenced and unbiased article **december** cited on page 1, **Fenris** , or you’d be on a plane to France RIGHT NOW to right all the anti-Jew wrongs purpetrated by the evil democrats, led by their Evil Dictator Bill “I love blow jobs from unattractive interns” Clinton and his Evil Democratic Anti-Jew Army of Muslims. All of whom are so anti-semitic they’d kill themselves if they weren’t so bent on killing every Jew. ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/107 "2003-04-05T08:28:22Z")
Look, **december** , you are being extremely fucking ignorant here, in a multitude of ways: 1. Though anti-Semitism is both a serious and repugnant problem in France, that doesn’t mean that _every fucking attack by an Arab on a Jew_ is anti-Semitic in nature. I am opposed to hate crimes laws, but even if you were for it (you were rather evasive, or at least non-committal, about your stance), the accused have still not been lawfully and fairly committed of such a crime. 2. Your comment about those who think it was a fair (or at least lawful) decision as being anti-Semitic, or unsympathetic to the victims of anti-Semitism, is offensive, presumptuous, and crass. one can support the communists’ right to free spech, or a fair trial, and still not be a communist. 3. You did not respond to my points, so I am assuming you agree with them. If so, why do you continue to consider this Web site’s classification of the judgment as “stupifying” as having any bearing on the real nature of the judgment? 4. I already explained to you, with a citation _directly from the article_ what the basis for the judgment was. Hell, **Sqube** translated the entire article for your benefit, showing your accusations to be without substance. _Even if_ the judge’s own personal motivation was anti-Semitism (which, not being a mind-reader, you have no ability to decide one way or the other), the fact that there is a valid basis under French law other than anti-Semitism is enough to justify the judgment. Jesus Christ, **december** , you are wrong. Just be a little damn mature and admit it. You owe an apology to the posters (including **wring** , **rjung** , and **Twist** , all of whom I frequently disagree with) you have insulted with your accusations. There is no proof that this was an anti-Semitic attack, and even if there were, that doesn’t mean it’s why the parents were fined, and even if it were, that doesn’t mean it’s not a valid decision according to French law, the judge’s personal motivation not bearing on the legal reasoning behind the decision. Many people who frequently agree with the causes you support, generally speaking (myself included), have criticized your position and actions in this thread. Just be a fucking man and concede that you were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/108 "2003-04-05T08:34:32Z")
Ack…in the first item, “committed” should obviously be “convicted”. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/109 "2003-04-05T08:46:15Z")
Headline in the Fredonia Times: _december admits entire premise of thread was misplaced amti-semite bashing. Says, ‘At least I didn’t start another thread about those evil Democrats’. Full story, pages A1-6._ _Dodo shit found inside Loch Ness Monster. How it survived a year inside the belly of the beast. Full story, page B5_ _Pope Out! Gay, Jewish 89-year-old Polish woman streaks at heavy metal concert, stays after for five-hour Q&A session. Story all of C section._ _Liberal Arts major reveals secrets to Cold Fusion. Story, E5._ _Cubs, Red Sox to meet up in World Series. Story, F1_ _Cecil Adams and Marilyn vos Savant revealed: siblings and married! Why Cecil says she’s the brains of the operation, G3._ ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/110 "2003-04-05T12:00:38Z")
actually, **december** did specifically withdraw his accusations against \*\*Twisty \*\* & me. (many thanks to all who spoke up. it bothers me indeed that **december** has ‘graduated’ from making odious, unsupported, insulting accusations against _groups_ (Dems, liberals, and other assorted ne’er do wells), to making the same sort of odious, unsupported and insulting accusations against specific posters) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/111 "2003-04-05T12:20:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eva Luna \* > \*\*Will anyone address the issue of whether the alleged attackers were in fact convicted of anything at all? I don’t see anything referring to a conviction in the article, so if there’s been no conviction even for assault, I don’t see how it’s logically possible to support that it was a hate crime. So no, unless a huge chunk of the story is missing (admittedly quite possible), I don’t see how these facts would support a hate crime conviction even in the U.S. \*\* I didn’t mean to accuse anyone on this board of being anti-semitic. I apologize to all who were insulted. What steamed me was the posts like **Eva Luna’s** , which begin with the presumption that justice was done. That presumption contradicts my rant, since my main complaint was that justice _wasn’t_ done. The trouble is, no poster has made a case that justice was done. **Eva Luna** says the the group of students who committed the assault last June apparently haven’t been prosecuted. The article mentions that one of the individuals involved was 15 years old. I would guess that the authorities would not want to file charges over a relatively minor incident involving children. In fact, I’d guess that the school never called in the police, nor should they have IMHO. From the POV of the Camus school, it’s an internal disipline matter. I hope that the school has disciplined the perps in some way. However, from the POV of the victims it’s a serious problem, especially if its seen as part of an ongoing pattern of harassment. **Fang** , I grant you that not every attack by an Arab on a Jew is based on anti-semitism. If you think _this_ attack wasn’t based on anti-semitism, I invite you to explain why not. Here’s a [google translation of a description of the incident](http://216.239.37.120/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&langpair=fr%7Cen&u=http://www.proche-orient.info/xjournal_racism_rep.php3%3Fid_article%3D10732&prev=/language_tools): > [@](#): > > What did it occur on June 27, 2002 to the college Albert Camus de Brunoy? This day, like each year since eighteen years, 22 girls of the close school, Beit Rivka, come to pass the tests of the patent of the colleges. **As of their arrival, the remarks fuse: "They wear a skirt. They are the Jewish ones "**. Later, the girls of the college Albert Camus will explain to the police officers the reason of this attitude. They were irritated by an incident which would have taken place a few days before: June 15, whereas they passed in front of the school Beit Rivka, of the pupils would have appeared with the windows: "Salts black, with your bottom behind! ". June 15 was one Saturday, day of shabbat. The school was closed and the pupils absent. Only in the establishment some interns remained. None the girls come to pass the patent of the colleges is internal. > > But in the logic of clans which prevails from now on in the suburbs, this precision is not likely to alleviate the spirits. Before starting to compose, the pupils of Beit Rivka intend themselves to declare that “if there is no war before the end of the day, it will be a miracle”. The morning proceeds nevertheless without another problem. The afternoon, on the other hand, the climate is tightened. Certain pupils, having finished the tests before the hour, go down in the court. Does harassing start again "What you make here? you release are not on your premise! One is not in Gaza! "Liora, 15 years, tells, intimidated and reddening: “They told us words… words which one hears in the street”. It looks at the president, with the air to ask whether it must state the words in question in front of the court “It is good, known as the president, we know these words”. > > As for the slap which Haya received, it would have inspired to the principal assistant, says the pupil, a simple comment: "I do not have anything considering. I can nothing make. > > **Liora had received a slap and several blows of fist. The Haya young person also testifies: "a girl approached me. She said to me to lower the eyes. She slapped me "**. The president reads the deposition of Mr., **the girl author of the aggression: "I saw a Jewish young person. She looked at us fixedly. That irritated me.** My girlfriends said to me especially not to refer to its religion, which I could have of the troubles. My hand left ". **Haya runs to warn the principal assistant, Mrs. Nicolas. It is there that testimonys diverge. According to pupils’ of Beit Rivka, Mrs. Nicolas would have been satisfied to say: "I do not want attroupement in the court. That will end in a brawl. You disperse "**. As for the slap which Haya received, it would have inspired to the principal assistant, says the pupil, a simple comment: "I do not have anything considering. I can nothing make ". (emphasis added) It’s hard to make sense of this. I would entreat **Fang** or **Sqube** to get a better translation from the [original French version of the March 12 article](http://www.proche-orient.info/xjournal_racism_rep.php3?id_article=10732). What I make of the machine translation is that there was animosity between the Arab and Jewish students, and it was based on ethnicity. There seems to be no question that Arab students physically attacked the Jewish students. It appears that Jewish (Beit Rivka) girls said that the Assistant Principal was informed of the attack, but did not act to stop it, although that point is apparently disputed. My understanding of the google translation would seem to show that the suit did have some merit. The Beit Rivka girls’ testimony seems to be that the Assistant Principal knew that the attack was going on, but did not act to stop it. That would seem to make a prima facie case of negligence by the school. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/112 "2003-04-05T12:32:17Z")
1. I believe that anit Semitism exists in France. 2. I believe it’s a large problem. 3. It’s entirely possible that the altercation spoken of here had it’s roots in ethnicity. 4. that has not been proven as yet. 5. **december** is not at all qualified to judge what actually happened there (he was not there, written accounts are in a different language which he does not speak) 6. **december** is even **less** qualified to judge if what actually transpired (in the courts etc.) was a fair application of French law and/or just, since : a. he does not know the facts of the case and b. he does not know the outcome of the case and most importantly, c. he knows diddly squat about French law and it’s applications. (him not being French, not speaking the language, not being a lawyer and all.) ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/113 "2003-04-05T12:47:20Z")
**december** , this was your OP: **Young girl beaten in anti-Semitic attack; French fine her parents!** Below that you wrote unsubstantiated misinformation intended to stir hatred against a people. How is it not a hate crime and you not a racist hate criminal ? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/114 "2003-04-05T13:41:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\ ***DCU** , you well know that a judge’s finding is not necessarily correct. […]However, I think the judge was wrong. \*\* On what basis? You don’t know French law and you don’t have (at best) more than a passing knowledge of the facts of the case. The manufactured outrage of one reporter is hardly enough to say the ruling was incorrect in any meaningful way. Look, the point is not that the judge was necessarily correct; like all fallible humans, he may not be. But neither you nor I are in a position to know that. We know neither the law nor the facts. Accordingly, the French courts, who do after all deal with the application of French law to facts occurring in France on a daily basis, are entitled to a measure of deference. I’m inclined to say they got it right unless fairly substantial evidence is presented to the contrary, something you just haven’t done. \*\* > [@](#): > > Also, note this quote from the google translation of the [March 12 article](http://216.239.37.120/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&langpair=fr%7Cen&u=http://www.proche-orient.info/xjournal_racism_rep.php3%3Fid_article%3D10732&prev=/language_tools). When you add this comment to the fact that a group of Arab students attacked these 3 Jewish girls, the warning from the Minister of Education, and the pattern of attacks by Arabs against Jews in France, I see a very strong case that it was a hate crime. I think one could get a conviction under hate crime statutes in the US based on these facts. Don’t you? \*\* Not hardly. It would take more proof than the happenstance occurance that aggressor and victim were of different races/religions, that sometimes racially motivated crimes happen in the US, and a government official has said that racially motivated crimes are a problem. The latter two items are totally irrelevant to the facts of a specific case, and the first item doesn’t prove a goddamn thing. The fact that you think this “evidence” should be enough to garner a hate crime conviction really shows you flip-flopping on the typical conservative position: concerns that the law could be twisted by an aggressive prosecutor and sympathetic jury to mean that any crime where perpetrator and victim are of different races is a “hate crime” is one reason conservatives oppose hate crime legislation. You are positively Liebermanesque in your willingness to flee from principle when convenient. \*\* > [@](#): > > If you or any other poster believe the attack was _not_ anti-semitism, I invite you to support you POV, beyond just saying there’s no way to be sure. \*\* Uh-uh, bubba. First of all, you’re asking us to prove a negative. Second of all, you’re the one making the claim that the event was racially motivated, so the burden of proof properly rests on your shoulders. You know, innocent until proven guilty, prosecution/plaintiff must prove each element of his case, etc, etc, etc. \*\* > [@](#): > > **Fenris** , **rjung** made a sarcastic comment and I responded with a sarcastic comment. \*\* No, you responded with a _stupid_ comment. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/115 "2003-04-05T14:07:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*I didn’t mean to accuse anyone on this board of being anti-semitic. I apologize to all who were insulted. \*\* Then stop doing it. \*\* > [@](#): > > What steamed me was the posts like **Eva Luna’s** , which begin with the presumption that justice was done. That presumption contradicts my rant, since my main complaint was that justice _wasn’t_ done. The trouble is, no poster has made a case that justice was done. \*\* Neither have you made a case that it wasn’t. One article, that’s utter gibberish (even in the face of two valient efforts by Dopers to translate) isn’t a cite: the article discusses almost nothing of your OP; it doesn’t discuss the beating, the original trial, the original trial’s outcome, etc. What it comes down to is that **NONE OF US KNOW**. No one’s read transcripts of the trial, no-one’s even posted accounts fo the trial. You’re making a wild-ass guess and _if_ **Eva** said that justice **was** done, so is she. The only correct answer at the moment, unless I’ve missed a cite somewhere in this train-wreck, is “We have insufficienct evidence to make a case for or against anti-semitism” The trick is, **December** : it is detrimental to a cause you, I and (I believe) **Eva** share (raising awareness of legitimate anti-semitism) for you to be running around like Chicken Little shrieking “The anti-semites are running amok!” with no evidence at the drop of a hat: you show me proof…hell, if you show me serious _evidence_ (the attacker’s membership in a hate-group for example…or school writings that the attackers did that expressed anti-semitic views) that this attack had it’s roots in anti-semitism and I’ll be on your side in a heartbeat. But so far, you have exactly two bits of so-called “evidence”: 1. The parent’s account. I don’t dismiss it out of hand, but it’s not enough, especially since it was, what? 2 sentences in the article? 2. The fact that the attackers were Arabs. I am stunned that you can’t see how insane and racist you sound when you say that (paraphrased) “Since the attackers were Arabs, they _must_ also be anti-Semites.” Would you assume that any time a white person and a black person get in a fight, the white person _MUST_ be a member of the Klan? Or the black person in the Black Panthers? Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/116 "2003-04-05T14:08:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*You didn’t answer the question. How does the parents’ lawsuit _contribute_ to Anti-Semitic sentiment in France? \*\* IMO it makes them look like manipulative jerks who are using the beating of their daughter as a forum to complain about the much larger issue of what they see as the French government’s failure to protect its citizens against anti-Semitic acts. (Were damages requested in the civil suit? If so, then it looks even worse, like parents are trying to profit monetarily from this unfounded suit.) The facts, as they have been so minimalistically presented in the linked articles, do not support this allegation, as has been borne out by the court judgement. The parents come out looking like manipulative, grandstanding jerks. The parents are Jewish. There are those who will extrapolate and impute the jerkish behavior of these two individuals to the Jewish community as a whole. I’mm off to slog my way throught the March 12 article now, as the Google translation is worse than useless. (I think it’ll be a warm day in Hell before machine translation can replace human beings, but that’s another thread.) ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/117 "2003-04-05T14:23:14Z")
Reading this thread belatedly, I think most of the issues have been cleared up (except for **december** throwing up dust screens). I just want to add a note about the legal issues involved. I am not very familiar with French law, but the legal system is quite similar to Dutch law (procedural and material), and I’ve done a few checks. AFAIK France does have a ‘loser pays’ system, but only for nominal costs, not for the real costs (such as I believe is the case in the UK). The parents had to pay those costs, but according to the article in addition had to pay damages as well. The suit is quite clearly without merit. French law does have a specific liability of teachers for their students (sec. 1384(6) Code Civil), but that is limited for the time that the students are under their supervision. In this case not the teacher but the principal was sued, on the basis of neglecting to assist (non-assistance à personne en danger). Although French law does allow for liability on this basis, the facts in this case don’t bear such a claim. (The principal’s lawyer stressed: que l’objet du procès n’était pas le caractère antisémite de l’agression mais l’éventuelle responsabilité de la principale et de son adjointe). The advocate of the parents even acknowledged that the claim had no chance of succeeding (Je ne pensais pas que le tribunal prendrait le risque de déclencher des réactions syndicales en condamnant une principale de collège). That means he deliberately started a suit that he estimated would not succeed. Add to that the publication surrounding the suit. It could have been that the judge thought this amounted to abuse of procedure. This is a seldomly used manner to punish someone frivolously or with the wrong intent starting a suit. However, the statement in the article that the parents had to pay damages seems to point in the direction of a counter-claim by the principal. The article mentions that the principal was irked by the suggestion that he had refrained from acting because the girl was Jewish. Just like the posters in this thread he was angry of the accusation of antisemitism. It looks like he instituted a counter-claim on the basis of slander/libel, and won. I can’t say I’m surprised given what the article states about the facts. EUR 4000 is not an extraordinary amount for damages on such a basis. There is no basis in the outcome of the case per se to say the judge or the principal was motivated by antisemitic tendencies. The parents started a claim with no merit, fuzzed up media attention. The principal though his good name was harmed by being accused of antisemitism, and the judge found that the principal was right. The moral is that you shouldn’t wildly accuse peope of antisemitism. Now is there anyone else who could profit from such a lesson? I could look up the specifics of French law in the office, but now it is weekend. I’ve checked: - Zweigert/Kotz, An introduction to comparative law, 3rd ed. Oxford 1998. - C.C. van Dam, Aansprakelijkheidsrecht, The Hague 2000, no. 219. (is this the first Pit thread with cites?) ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/118 "2003-04-05T14:24:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*6. c. he knows diddly squat about French law and it’s applications. (him not being French, not speaking the language, not being a lawyer and all.) \*\* I quibble with this last point. The “he’s not a lawyer, he can’t judge the law” bit. (I _hate_ that idea) If the judge were a member of the French version of the Aryan Nation and the three attackers had, say, each written essays the previous week saying “Let’s beat up ‘Jewessess’ for Hitler!”, but they still got off, I’d be pretty confident in saying “This is bullshit” and if the law supported their aquittal, I’d be equally confident saying “The law is a ass” Not that **December** _has_ such a “smoking gun”, of course. But still: non-lawyers are perfectly qualified to judge the justice of a trial. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/119 "2003-04-05T14:30:40Z")
I didn’t say it well. My point was that since he’s not studied law, he has insufficient info/experience to judge the merits of the case, which is what he is attempting to do. the concept of ‘justice’ is a different quality, and would not, require any degree of understanding of laws and their applications. however, it seemed to me that he kept on insisting that the **merits** of the case were obvious, which, since we don’t have the facts isn’t correct, and would also require an understanding of the relevent French laws. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299/120 "2003-04-05T14:40:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > **But so far, you have exactly two bits of so-called “evidence”:** I do regret my sarcastic shot at **rjung**. I disagree with your presentation of the evidence of anti-semitism. The parents account is not evidence, because they weren’t there. It’s the students’ accounts that are the key. Based on the March 12 article, there seems to be no dispute that:[ul][_] a group of Arab students slapped and punched these three Jewish girls.[_]When the Jewish girls first arrived, a comment was made about their Jewishness because they dressed differently.There had been animosity and verbal insults between the Jewish students and the Arab students, **based on ethnicity**.[/ul]If you want to argue that the Jewish girls comments displayed anti-Arabism, you might have a case, But, I don’t understand why you do not agree that the Arab students comments _and actions_ displayed anti-semitism. What other elements would be needed for you folks to be convinced? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-girl-beaten-in-anti-semitic-attack-french-fine-her-parents/166299.md?page=7)