# Young men and relationships **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 11, 2025, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156 "2025-02-11T05:39:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2025, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/161 "2025-02-15T21:51:09Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > You think women should be tall, protective, and brave but that society should refuse to acknowledge that this is possible? Lmao. I meant we might want to say as a society that these characteristics are masculine ones, and that women exhibiting them are rather more masculine than they would otherwise be considered - if we want to have a positive version of masculinity, that is. Probably not height, actually, since it’s extremely hard to change, and the point is encourage positive behaviours that will both make men more attractive to women and benefit everyone. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The wrong kind of “protectiveness” can be. Any virtue can become a vice if taken to extremes. It’s important to emphasise it’s the last part that’s the problem when criticising it. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > There are other types and degrees of protectiveness that are appropriate towards anybody – including towards adult men. IME most men hate being defended, so I generally try to avoid it. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > It’s not clear to me whether @k9bfriender made any attempt to contact them again; or whether they were themselves so embarrassed by the encounter that they avoided most of the group. > > It’s also not clear to me whether they ever tried to find out why they were told to leave and to do so without coming back into the house. Yeah. IMO it’s weird to ask a guy if he wants to have sex when he just asked you out. Isn’t that kind of implied? People assume women have good social skills and its not always true; I think it’s at least as likely she was mortified because she felt like she screwed up and embarrassed herself as that she was angry with k9. > [@msmith537](#): > > Also I think it’s too easy for young people to just be alone in their apartment these days. They have all manner of digital entertainment to occupy their time. Sure. we had videogames and TV and VCRs back in the day, but if I spent all my time in my 20s holed up in my apartment I’d lose my mind with boredom. > > I think this not only prevents them from developing the skills for meeting someone to have a relationship with, it also makes it less desirable to be in a long-term relationship. Why put up with all that messy relationship bullshit when you can have transactional relationships through some dating app? Yeah. It’s easier to entertain yourself, and social media and porn serve as a substitute for different aspects of relationships, reducing the incentive to put in the effort required to find one. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2025, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/162 "2025-02-15T22:17:59Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > You think women should be tall, protective, and brave but that society should refuse to acknowledge that this is possible? > > Lmao. I meant we might want to say as a society that these characteristics are masculine ones, and that women exhibiting them are rather more masculine than they would otherwise be considered - if we want to have a positive version of masculinity, that is. Probably not height, actually, since it’s extremely hard to change, and the point is encourage positive behaviours that will both make men more attractive to women and benefit everyone. And to discourage them in women, by calling them masculine? And to encourage, or even flat out state, that feminine women can’t be brave or protective? “Mama Bear”, even, can’t be feminine? I most certainly don’t see how that will “benefit everyone”. I’m a woman, damn it. If I’m being brave and/or protective, I am not being “masculine”. I find that sort of statement massively denigrating. And it’s certainly not going to attract me to any man going around saying that sort of thing. It’s going to turn me right off. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2025, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/163 "2025-02-15T22:58:50Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And to discourage them in women, by calling them masculine? That would be a likely result. Some would come to accept that they have some masculine characteristics/interests/whatever, and that’s okay - like I did. It helped that I found a guy who thought these things were a positive. But what is your alternative, other than doing away with the idea of masculinity and femininity altogether? To saying “there is no non-toxic masculinity; everyone is a person, and should aspire to the same things”? > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > “Mama Bear”, even, can’t be feminine? In our society, protecting children can be feminine, protecting men not. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I most certainly don’t see how that will “benefit everyone”. I’m a woman, damn it. If I’m being brave and/or protective, I am not being “masculine”. I find that sort of statement massively denigrating. Sorry. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And it’s certainly not going to attract me to any man going around saying that sort of thing. It’s going to turn me right off. I hope you won’t be offended if I say you’re not representative of the average woman (and neither am I). ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/164 "2025-02-16T00:34:33Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I most certainly don’t see how that will “benefit everyone”. I’m a woman, damn it. If I’m being brave and/or protective, I am not being “masculine”. I find that sort of statement massively denigrating. Regardless of what traits can be called ‘masculine’ or not, it’s interesting that you find the comparison to be denigrating. That doesn’t speak well of how most people view masculinity. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/165 "2025-02-16T01:05:16Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > But what is your alternative, other than doing away with the idea of masculinity and femininity altogether? To saying “there is no non-toxic masculinity; everyone is a person, and should aspire to the same things”? I don’t understand your obsession with having some hardline division between masculine and feminine. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/166 "2025-02-16T01:14:55Z")
This pretty standard conservative ideology at play. The new (ish) dark enlightenment krew is very very much about reestablishing traditional gender roles and drawing a very bright line between them See: > **[Neopatriarchy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopatriarchy)** > > Neopatriarchy is a contemporary social structure where traditional patriarchal norms are maintained or revived within the context of modern society. The term was originally coined by Palestinian intellectual Hisham Sharabi in his 1988 work, Neopatriarchy: A Theory of Distorted Change in Arab Society, where he examined the persistence of patriarchal values in Arab societies despite modernization efforts. Today, the concept has broadened to describe similar dynamics globally, where traditional gend... ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/167 "2025-02-16T01:21:19Z")
Well, f\*ck that. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/168 "2025-02-16T01:23:00Z")
Ah, the “washing their asscrack makes guys gay” mindset. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/169 "2025-02-16T01:32:10Z")
I think it connects back to the idea that if society doesn’t keep enforcing these gender rules then women will forget that they are women and should be bearing White children as their purpose (see Elon Musk and the rest of the krews obsession with so-called underpopulation). White Genocide is a direct consequence of relaxing gender roles. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/170 "2025-02-16T01:33:29Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Regardless of what traits can be called ‘masculine’ or not, it’s interesting that you find the comparison to be denigrating. That doesn’t speak well of how most people view masculinity That’s not why I find it denigrating. I find it denigrating to women, because it says that women do not have those virtues. I find it equally denigrating to men to say that they can’t cook, or can’t cuddle babies, or can’t be empathetic, or whatever; or can’t do those things without being called “feminine”. > [@carrps](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > But what is your alternative, other than doing away with the idea of masculinity and femininity altogether? To saying “there is no non-toxic masculinity; everyone is a person, and should aspire to the same things”? > > I don’t understand your obsession with having some hardline division between masculine and feminine. Why? Yeah. Why? Look – we’ve been telling everybody, from the day of their birth, that they’re a boy or a girl and that this means they Must Fit In This Box. (What box, precisely, depends on what culture we’re talking about; which says a great deal about whether any particular bit of behavior is essentially male or female – it’s not.) And this has been damaging people, of all genders, for the whole damn time we’ve been doing it. It’s what’s damaging the boys that you’re trying to use it to save. The problem isn’t that they’re being told women can do things, and the problem isn’t that they’ve got no examples of masculine people who are fine with that and are still masculine in the natural sense – the problem is that they’re being told they have to be Masculine™, and that they can’t be Masculine™ unless the women are being Feminine™. How about we tell the kids that they’re human, and here are some various examples of how to be a good human, pick the version(s) that fit you? And there are a whole lot of things you can do to be useful and/or lovable and/or sexually attractive; but screwing other people over is never among the examples? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/171 "2025-02-16T01:40:31Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I find it equally denigrating to men to say that they can’t cook, or can’t cuddle babies, or can’t be empathetic, or whatever; or can’t do those things without being called “feminine”. Exactly. When I care for a child or cute animal I am not ‘getting in touch with my feminine side’ In most ways I am not traditionally masculine. I am fine with that. My Dad, among many other problems, had a bad case of toxic masculinity. I am a man. I didn’t watch a second of the Super Bowl. I have been to Shakespeare In The Park in this neighborhood twice. I enjoy sewing. None of this changes that I am a man and a heterosexual man at that. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/172 "2025-02-16T02:18:18Z")
Perplexingly, although both her grandfathers are pathetically damaged men, my dad taught my daughter to place all seven in the ring with a Colt M1911, and her mother’s dad, two time all-Army welterweight champ, taught her to punch a creep’s lights out. Not a thought of imposing traditional gender roles. People don’t fit their boxes; even the boxes we enlightened ones think they inhabit. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/173 "2025-02-16T02:28:55Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > None of this changes that I am a man and a heterosexual man at that. I feel the need to clarify. There is nothing wrong with being a gay man. But, if a man likes the theatre, sewing, etc many people will assume that he is gay. This also means that if a man is gay, many people will assume he likes the theatre, sewing etc. There are heterosexual men who are not traditionally masculine. There are gay men who are very miuch traditionally masculine. That is all I meant. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/174 "2025-02-16T02:31:02Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I am a man. I didn’t watch a second of the Super Bowl. I have been to Shakespeare In The Park in this neighborhood twice. I enjoy sewing. None of this changes that I am a man Now there is genuine masculinity. Nothing toxic about it. (Nothing toxic about watching the Super Bowl, either; or about not liking to sew; just in case I need to say that.) ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/175 "2025-02-16T02:51:45Z")
Perhaps to the annoyance of all, I’m re-entering the thread on the abuse of “ **toxic** ” as a word to describe bad behavior. Since I’d worked in industrial safety, both on the environmental compliance and workmans compensation sides, _exact_ language was imperative IRG chemicals and medical terminology, respectively. Because words are what lawyers, judges and juries listen for. But that’s not your line as you talk about shitty behavior: I get that. Toxic: an industrial byproduct that, if negligently released can have poisoninous results. A great analogy word, but no more than that. You could just as well use the other words from my field: corrosive, or mutagenic. _Mutagenic_: having the ability to cause permanent changes in an organism’s DNA. That’s just as good as any analogy for baked-in shittyness. But if I were an editor and a reporter came in with “toxic,” I’d have to send them back to the thesaurus. Instead, use one or more of the Seven Deadly Sins. Or something more organic, although testosterone, estrogen, epinephrine, norepinephrine, serotonin, etc. aren’t “toxic” compounds. Something; anything besides mindless pop-psychology claptrap. Please think about it. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/176 "2025-02-16T03:18:47Z")
I understand your point. But I disagree that this is “abuse” of the word toxic. Additionally, I just don’t see any chance of changing the phrase toxic masculinity now. It used to be that it was Chinese New Year. At some point, people started calling it Lunar New Year. AFAIK, the Chinese calendar is not lunar. It is luna-solar like the Hebrew calendar. The only truly lunar calendar I know of is the Islamic calendar. The change from Chinese New Year to Lunar New Year bugs me every year. I realize that I cannot do anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![Sooner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sooner/32/7875_2.png) [@Sooner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sooner)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/177 "2025-02-16T04:06:19Z")
My father was a straight cut, WW2, Korean, Vietnam fighter pilot. He walked with my sisters in a ERA rally, not because he thought it was necessary. But because they did. Grumpy old white men, will often surprise if given a chance. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/178 "2025-02-16T12:55:01Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > The change from Chinese New Year to Lunar New Year bugs me every year. You realize that not only the Chinese celebrate it? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/179 "2025-02-16T13:54:52Z")
Gendered personality traits are culturally driven–but that doesn’t make them fake, any more than the cultural nature of money makes it fake. It just means that if we can change culture, we can change them; and we should regard gendered personality traits critically, with an eye toward whether they’re doing more good than harm. _Within the realm of culturally gendered personality traits_, there are absolutely some that are culturally tied to masculinity. Strength, protecting the weak, stoicism, braggadocio, aggressiveness, competitiveness, etc. It also includes things like short hair, certain clothing styles, certain toys for children (and, I guess, for adults, but very different kinds of toys), and so on. Toxic masculinity, to me, refers to the display of these traits in a harmful way. The opposite, though, is a lot trickier. For the positive personality traits, treating them as “masculine” becomes a kind of gatekeeping. If someone values protecting the weak, are they being masculine? Or just a good person? If a woman shows courage, is she manly, or just courageous? I started this post yesterday, and in between, @thorny_locust wrote most of what I was going to say: > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > That’s not why I find it denigrating. I find it denigrating to women, because it says that women do not have those virtues. > > I find it equally denigrating to men to say that they can’t cook, or can’t cuddle babies, or can’t be empathetic, or whatever; or can’t do those things without being called “feminine”. The tricky part, though, is that for the foreseeable future, people _will_ identify very strongly with their gender. Is it possible to lessen toxic masculinity in an environment in which young boys want to grow up to be “masculine,” by giving a positive model of masculinity? Or will toxic masculinity remain a powerful force until we get rid of the idea of masculine traits entirely? I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2025, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156/180 "2025-02-16T14:10:22Z")
Yes, I know that. I would have been fine with changing Chinese New Year to something that included all the cultures going by that calendar. Instead, the term Lunar New Year is simply inaccurate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-men-and-relationships/1014156.md?page=10)