# Young People More Likely To Favor Socialism Than Capitalism: Pew 12/29/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691 "2012-01-16T14:09:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/61 "2012-01-20T23:05:15Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > (How many rich/upper middle-class people do I know that have hardly ever worked in their lives but reap the best rewards society’s labor has to offer? Well ya a lot lol) I often forget that my six figure job came from a wish granted to me by a genie in a bottle I found on the beach. WHY DIDN’T I JUST WISH FOR A SHITLOAD OF MONEY!! IDIOT!! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/62 "2012-01-20T23:22:28Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The owner of your company must be doing something right to be running his own company. And there must be some reason he would entrust a position at his company to one of his drinking buddies. And as one of my former managers told me long ago, you take part of the success or failure of every employee who works for you. Yes, sometimes we have to fire people who don’t work out. But you also have to look at yourself to make sure you did all you could to try to make that person successful. > > My point is maybe this individual wasn’t a good fit for this particular position, but the fact that you dismiss him as a “chucklefuck” is more of a reflection on you, than him. Maybe when you get a little bit older you’ll learn that not everything any manager does, even company founders, is rational. This is a stupid discussion in any case. Anyone who has been knows that 29 year-olds and 50 year-olds are both vital. I’m 60, and I bring lots of experience and a sense of the history of my field, since I’ve been in it since near the beginning, and helped invent a lot of stuff that people take for granted. I just hired someone who is 29 or a little less. He brings his training in concepts that weren’t even invented when I was in grad school. I did the same thing when I got my first job at 29. He and an intern we had last summer made me learn all kinds of new stuff, and it has been fun. I suppose if you are in an industry that hasn’t changed in decades getting new people doesn’t matter, but in mine it does. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/63 "2012-01-20T23:28:42Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I often forget that my six figure job came from a wish granted to me by a genie in a bottle I found on the beach. WHY DIDN’T I JUST WISH FOR A SHITLOAD OF MONEY!! IDIOT!! ya that’s a perfectly reasonable retort. I mean since what I obviously meant was that people making 100-120k a year in professional positions that took them over a decade to develop skills and education for are total douchebags who don’t deserve the income. Totally what I meant. Totally. For sure. Time to go to the mall! Yay, no logic land and brain melting talk radio on the way! ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/64 "2012-01-21T01:43:57Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > ya that’s a perfectly reasonable retort. I mean since what I obviously meant was that people making 100-120k a year in professional positions that took them over a decade to develop skills and education for are total douchebags who don’t deserve the income. Totally what I meant. Totally. For sure. Time to go to the mall! Yay, no logic land and brain melting talk radio on the way! Nobody knows what you “meant”. Just what you posted. Most of which was unintelligable. > [@Voyager](#): > > Maybe when you get a little bit older you’ll learn that not everything any manager does, even company founders, is rational. I didn’t say “rational”. I said that they might have something to offer or teach and that the **Zeriel** shouldn’t be so dismissive. Even if their reason seems stupid. And I can’t help but think firing the bosses drinking buddy can’t be that great of a career move. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/65 "2012-01-21T02:35:24Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yes actually. > > Really, can you think of anything a person has been doing for 7 years that they would be better at it that 99% of the people who are just starting out? I’ll remember that when I meet a 43 year old who is contemptuous of 36 year olds. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/66 "2012-01-21T02:49:57Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Of course, you do realize you sound like every arrogant 20-something “IT Director” who thinks setting up computer networks and administering email accounts is the height of intellectual and professional acheivement. You could say that, but it was a web operation with global client base and three geographically separated server farms. It’s easy to mix up “arrogant” and “actually damn good” when you don’t have any reference point. > [@](#): > > And why do you put it in quotes? Are you implying that wasn’t your job title? I actually rotated between that and “senior system administrator” and “CIO” depending on whether the owner was trying to get venture capital or not. > [@](#): > > The owner of your company must be doing something right to be running his own company. That one? I haven’t worked for that idiot for years. He hired a CEO to run the business for him every couple of years, and gradually started ignoring them. The extent he was listening to someone with actual business sense determined how well the business was running, and I got fed up with it around the second bust cycle (when the owner arbitrarily sold off the most profitable portion of the company because it wasn’t what he wanted his core business to be). He was the epitome of “great scientist, shitty businessman”–he could only keep afloat during the lean times because he was honestly a brilliant meteorologist. > [@](#): > > And there must be some reason he would entrust a position at his company to one of his drinking buddies. Same reason the current IT director there (in an all-Linux shop) is a Windows 2003 expert who happened to be his cousin–he likes nepotism because he’s a control freak. > [@](#): > > And as one of my former managers told me long ago, you take part of the success or failure of every employee who works for you. Yes, sometimes we have to fire people who don’t work out. But you also have to look at yourself to make sure you did all you could to try to make that person successful. I left out the three months I spent trying to train him to understand any more than the basics. > [@](#): > > My point is maybe this individual wasn’t a good fit for this particular position, but the fact that you dismiss him as a “chucklefuck” is more of a reflection on you, than him. Yeah, it reflects that I don’t suffer lazy fools well, especially when they’re forced on me by a nepotistic control freak. I stayed with that job exactly long enough to not look like a job-jumper on my resume. 😛 > [@msmith537](#): > > And I can’t help but think firing the bosses drinking buddy can’t be that great of a career move. Perhaps you should reflect on how good at what I do I must have been to survive that in a field as relatively saturated as IT administration. ---
**Author:** ![Paralogic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Paralogic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paralogic)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/67 "2012-01-21T03:51:32Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Is this a hopeful sign, or evidence of encroaching decadence? It’s nothing. More than 75% of those surveyed don’t know what socialism is. I’m not criticizing it as a socio-political ideology one way or another, I’m just stating the obvious: most people are ignorant of everything. Same goes with college students or recent graduates. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/68 "2012-01-21T07:58:28Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It has nothing to do with being a “failure”. Young people tend to think they know everything already. And not only do they lack practical experience to back up what they think they know, they often don’t even know what they don’t know. You can often learn more from a 50 year old “failure” than you can from a 24 year old “success”. > > Yes actually. > > Really, can you think of anything a person has been doing for 7 years that they would be better at it that 99% of the people who are just starting out? You are 36? You’re a sophomore scorning the freshman, guy. That’s pathetic and sad. Just because you have a little bit on someone else… Experience doesn’t always mean squat anymore. Sometimes, it’s a liability. Young, new talent with fresh ideas have always driven innovation. The senior manager rarely invents the new stuff, cause he’s busy senior managing. Also, if you’re this grumpy about people less than a decade younger than you now, imagine how unhappy you’re gonna be at 70! ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/69 "2012-01-21T16:36:59Z")
It is pretty funny being lectured on how older people are so much more valuable by a guy who’s got less than half a decade on me, at that. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/70 "2012-01-21T19:17:01Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > It is pretty funny being lectured on how older people are so much more valuable by a guy who’s got less than half a decade on me, at that. I could have probably warned you about that startup company you worked for. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/71 "2012-01-21T19:21:52Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > You are 36? You’re a sophomore scorning the freshman, guy. That’s pathetic and sad. Just because you have a little bit on someone else… > > Experience doesn’t always mean squat anymore. Sometimes, it’s a liability. Young, new talent with fresh ideas have always driven innovation. The senior manager rarely invents the new stuff, cause he’s busy senior managing. > > Also, if you’re this grumpy about people less than a decade younger than you now, imagine how unhappy you’re gonna be at 70! 39 actually fwiw. And the freshman might be wise to listen to the advice of the sophomores to avoid catching a beating from the seniors. And who do you think invented my company’s product? The kids right out of college or thr 40 yr old founders with their phds and years of business experience? Again…What ideas or innovations have you brought? Or did someone just tell you that stuff? ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/72 "2012-01-21T21:00:21Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > 39 actually fwiw. And the freshman might be wise to listen to the advice of the sophomores to avoid catching a beating from the seniors. > > And who do you think invented my company’s product? The kids right out of college or thr 40 yr old founders with their phds and years of business experience? > > Again…What ideas or innovations have you brought? Or did someone just tell you that stuff? I don’t know what your company’s product is. I haven’t innovated anything. I’ve been busy taking the long way to where I am. Which is nowhere much, btw. You aren’t lecturing the freshman, you’re just bitching and insulting. Real mature stuff. It would be different if you were warning or teaching, but you aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/73 "2012-01-21T21:42:18Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I could have probably warned you about that startup company you worked for. _I_ could have warned me about it, but at the time I was in a position to take a long shot before something nicer came around–as it was, I was there less than a year. > [@msmith537](#): > > And who do you think invented my company’s product? The kids right out of college or thr 40 yr old founders with their phds and years of business experience? > > Again…What ideas or innovations have you brought? Or did someone just tell you that stuff? At my current employer, we’re getting about 50-50 from people over and under 35, in terms of innovation. At the moment, we’re actually getting MORE day-to-day production effort (testing, programming, etc.) from under-35s, but that’s just a function of pure numbers. In terms of project lead designers, though, they are 46, 32, 32, 29, 26, 48, and 44. Single most profitable guy at the company, in terms of net revenue he’s personally responsible for, is 32–and has been that guy since he was 26, but you don’t have a savant at both engineering AND salesmanship in the same body all that often. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/74 "2012-01-22T02:57:14Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > I don’t know what your company’s product is. Yeah…I’m not so sure I do either. Some sort of software algorithm or something. > [@YoDoc](#): > > I haven’t innovated anything. I’ve been busy taking the long way to where I am. Which is nowhere much, btw. Well, maybe if someone with more experience had given you better advice and you had listened, you wouldn’t be “nowhere much”. > [@YoDoc](#): > > You aren’t lecturing the freshman, you’re just bitching and insulting. Real mature stuff. It would be different if you were warning or teaching, but you aren’t. I’m sorry you take my advice as “bitching and insulting”. > [@Zeriel](#): > > At my current employer, we’re getting about 50-50 from people over and under 35, in terms of innovation. At the moment, we’re actually getting MORE day-to-day production effort (testing, programming, etc.) from under-35s, but that’s just a function of pure numbers. > > In terms of project lead designers, though, they are 46, 32, 32, 29, 26, 48, and 44. Single most profitable guy at the company, in terms of net revenue he’s personally responsible for, is 32–and has been that guy since he was 26, but you don’t have a savant at both engineering AND salesmanship in the same body all that often. Yes, I have worked in the high tech / management consulting / software startup industry in some form my entire career. My entire company is filled with MBA/PhD/Ivy League/MIT types. In fact, I just came off a flight from our company hq in Silicon Valley (and I was reading the Forbes 30 under 30 issue on the plane). There are really smart people at every age. And they can all learn from someone who is just as smart who has been doing longer. Let me put in another way. You were talking about your experiences when you were arounf 26, however many years ago. Have you learned anything since that time? Do you think you will learn any more over the next decade? If you went back in time, would young you have anything to learn from your teachings? > [@Voyager](#): > > I just hired someone who is 29 or a little less. He brings his training in concepts that weren’t even invented when I was in grad school. Concepts like what? The “wheel”? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/75 "2012-01-22T04:20:51Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Let me put in another way. You were talking about your experiences when you were arounf 26, however many years ago. Have you learned anything since that time? Do you think you will learn any more over the next decade? If you went back in time, would young you have anything to learn from your teachings? I would; I’ve met a lot in this general industry who would not. Got at least one fiftysomething working for us whose entire job security is tied up in deliberately obfuscated fortran code (and his manager, who’s a prissy make-nice type who seems to honestly believe that said fiftysomething will eventually document his code if asked nicely enough). I’ve seen too many otherwise decently smart engineers who thought their Ph.D. was a license to coast to really justify making any judgements based on age. Age is a factor, certainly–but only in someone who’s also proven to be driven to excellence–and the point being originally responded to was the idea that people under 29 are essentially useless and worse compared to more experienced people in all cases, which is manifestly not true. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry you take my advice as “bitching and insulting”. Nothing that you’ve said can be construed as useful advice, sorry to say. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/76 "2012-01-22T05:00:29Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It has nothing to do with being a “failure”. Young people tend to think they know everything already. And not only do they lack practical experience to back up what they think they know, they often don’t even know what they don’t know. You can often learn more from a 50 year old “failure” than you can from a 24 year old “success”. It’s also true that the world is constantly in flux and what is coming in all respects is better understood by the young. And what is coming is often better than what preceded it. Take for instance racism. People don’t change their minds, they just die, and the environment the next generation is raised in allows them more introspection than their parents. What you _can_ learn from a 50 year old failure is what is required to not succeed in a world that no longer exists. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/77 "2012-01-22T05:46:46Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Concepts like what? The “wheel”? 😃 Hush. Fire. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/78 "2012-01-22T08:05:36Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yeah…I’m not so sure I do either. Some sort of software algorithm or something. > > Well, maybe if someone with more experience had given you better advice and you had listened, you wouldn’t be “nowhere much”. You don’t even know what your company makes? Or this is a facetious statement? If I had listened to them old wise folks, I’d be a whole different person. I may still have failed, since they were pushing me towards IT anyway. Instead, I got to make my own decisions and learn my own way and get loads of experience doing different things. I am a very well rounded fellow, skill-wise. Now it’s time to master one. The “old folks” who give advice like yours (which has so far been mostly ‘you are worthless and nobody cares about you’) are, IME, the ones who are so unhappy it makes me sick to be around them. I took a round-about path and learned how to be happy, others take a direct path and learn how to make money, but then get so caught up in making money that they never learn how to be happy… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/79 "2012-01-22T17:04:49Z")
Jeebus, this thread has drifted. Fact is, the current economic mess combined with the obvious culpability of the one percenters in creating it is minting young progressives by the millions. The right scored a great victory in the 80s by successfully making the terms “liberal” and “socialist” unthinkably pejorative, but now that capitalism has totally fucked so many Americans, guess what? “Capitalist” is a pejorative too, meaning “a greedy bastard who steals from the American people.” Couldn’t happen to a more deserving bunch! ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691/80 "2012-01-22T17:55:31Z")
I’d say it’s almost the opposite–as has been said upthread, you can vilify socialism when you can pretend it’s all a Soviet plot, but once it becomes “socialist” to advocate for single-payer healthcare and a top marginal tax rate of 39%, “socialism” doesn’t mean anything particularly bad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-people-more-likely-to-favor-socialism-than-capitalism-pew-12-29-11/609691.md?page=5)