# Young women and possessiveness over "Nerd/Geek" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369 "2014-02-02T19:29:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/181 "2014-02-07T00:58:48Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Which is why people like me have a responsibility to realize we’re terrible people. I don’t think I have social skills, which makes it a grievous sin to be around **people** in general. Nobody deserves to be subjected to me. This is why I have to take care to only shop at places with self checkouts for instance, once I didn’t eat for 3-4 days because my local supermarket got rid of them and I had to find a different one so that I didn’t have to burden a cashier with my presence. It’s also why I purposefully told all my friends I couldn’t be their friend anymore, because I’m bad and toxic and harmful. When I do talk to people in real life I make sure to hurt myself when I get home to make up for the pain I likely caused the person I talked to just by interacting with them. > > But for me, it’s not just pretty women or whatever, it’s **everyone** , it’s what terrible people like me have to do. > > Some humans just don’t have social skills, and interacting with someone entails inflicting harm on them. And it’s up to people like me to take responsibility for that and politely withdraw from society so we don’t harm others. I honestly can’t even tell if you are joking. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/182 "2014-02-07T01:00:02Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I honestly can’t even tell if you are joking. Why would I be joking? I’m terrible, it’s a fact. To be fair, I doubt 99% of people are as bad as me, so they probably don’t need to go to such extreme measures. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/183 "2014-02-07T01:02:03Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Why would I be joking? I’m terrible, it’s a fact. > > To be fair, I doubt 99% of people are as bad as me, so they probably don’t need to go to such extreme measures. Because unless you are stabbing the checkout dude at Kroger, saying you stopped eating so as not to burden the cashier with your presence is so extreme as to be either a joke or madness. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/184 "2014-02-07T01:09:13Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Because unless you are stabbing the checkout dude at Kroger, saying you stopped eating so as not to burden the cashier with your presence is so extreme as to be either a joke or madness. Indeed. **Jragon** , I know it’s a hijack, but you’re not nearly as important to strangers as you’ve convinced yourself you are. You’re describing the weirdest delusion of grandeur I’ve ever heard of. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/185 "2014-02-07T01:15:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Indeed. **Jragon** , I know it’s a hijack, but you’re not nearly as important to strangers as you’ve convinced yourself you are. You’re describing the weirdest delusion of grandeur I’ve ever heard of. I don’t think I’ll ruin their life or anything, but I don’t want to cause pain. What if I said something wrong? What if the other person was beaten every day and their abuser looked a lot like me and seeing me triggers them? Sure it’s a .00000000001% chance, but there are so many coincidental ways I can cause pain just by existing. Without even trying. And I don’t want to cause anybody pain. Ever. I feel sick to my stomach applying for jobs because I’m constantly terrified that I may get a job over someone who deserves it more and would be better than me because their resume wasn’t formatted as nicely or they didn’t interview as well due to bad luck. What if I say the wrong word? If I’m socially awkward while talking to people, it will make them feel awkward. Awkwardness is a type of pain. I do not want to cause one single ounce of pain. It’s immoral. it’s unethical. Sure, in the grand scheme of things, it’s not the holocaust, but it’s my duty to not add to the suffering of this world, even if the suffering I would add is no more than making someone sad from seeing cat hair on my shirt reminding them that their cat just died. Most people are okay, because they put enough good into the world that it balances it. But when it comes down to it, I’m unable to add enough good to the world, so these petty, normally inconsequential pieces of harm become much worse **proportionally**. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/186 "2014-02-07T01:17:08Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Why would I be joking? I’m terrible, it’s a fact. > > To be fair, I doubt 99% of people are as bad as me, so they probably don’t need to go to such extreme measures. Jragon, I’m only going to bring this up once, and I’m going to assume you are sincere in your posts: I’ve read your posts and you’re not a bad guy. I’ve seen your pic, and you look perfectly ordinary. Your self image is entirely delusional. This delusion must be making you miserable. There are ways to deal with it and overcome it: Cognitive behavioral therapy, traditional talk therapy, meds. I hope you find a path or combination of paths that works. That’s all I have to say about that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/187 "2014-02-07T01:18:58Z")
I wanna say more on that: > [@Jragon](#): > > I don’t think I have social skills, which makes it a grievous sin to be around people in general. That’s some self-important bullshit. A grievous sin is stabbing the checkout clerk, like **jsgoddess** said, or raping fellow customers, or setting the store on fire. A really annoying sin is preaching at your fellow shoppers, or singing profanity-laden shanties, or peeing on the cereal aisle. A somewhat annoying sin is wearing a shirt with “I Got My Crabs at Dicks”, or going to the store when you haven’t bathed in a week. Not having social skills? If you’re not doing any of those things, it’s not a sin. And for you to respond to my post about active misogyny by saying, “Which is why people like me have a responsibility to realize we’re terrible people,” is a total _non sequitur_. Knock it off, willya? Edit: look, if this needs to continue, start a **Jragon** is Terrible thread, maybe. That’s not what this thread is about. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/188 "2014-02-07T01:20:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I wanna say more on that: > > That’s some self-important bullshit. A grievous sin is stabbing the checkout clerk, like **jsgoddess** said, or raping fellow customers, or setting the store on fire. A really annoying sin is preaching at your fellow shoppers, or singing profanity-laden shanties, or peeing on the cereal aisle. A somewhat annoying sin is wearing a shirt with “I Got My Crabs at Dicks”, or going to the store when you haven’t bathed in a week. > > Not having social skills? If you’re not doing any of those things, it’s not a sin. And for you to respond to my post about active misogyny by saying, “Which is why people like me have a responsibility to realize we’re terrible people,” is a total _non sequitur_. Knock it off, willya? It’s not a non-sequitur. These people need to realize that they need to not be mean to the women, and that means they should probably sequester themselves from public if they can’t reform. Not stay in their groups and tell others they can’t join. They might have a duty to say **they’re** not geeks because they don’t deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/189 "2014-02-07T01:28:26Z")
I was offering myself as a point of comparison. I recognize that I hurt people proportionally more than I help, so I leave society. Misogynists have a duty to realize they don’t properly treat women as people and renounce all claims to their subculture and avoid contact with people they may offend or harass. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/190 "2014-02-07T01:33:09Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I was offering myself as a point of comparison. I recognize that I hurt people proportionally more than I help, so I leave society. Misogynists have a duty to realize they don’t properly treat women as people and renounce all claims to their subculture and avoid contact with people they may offend or harass. Your analogy isn’t as shitty as **Habeed’s** , but only because your reasoning both in your personal life and as regards misogynist gamers is equally, and similarly, flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/191 "2014-02-07T02:13:11Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Now, we do live in a civilized world. Those men didn’t assault you or even say anything out loud. But, subconsciously, it was unpleasant for them with you around. Actually, one DID assault me. That was the last straw and I avoided conventions for the next 15 years. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/192 "2014-02-07T02:27:27Z")
> [@Infovore](#): > > It _is_ possible that a pretty woman who gives a damn about her appearance might also actually possess a brain and a love for geeky pastimes (and geeky guys). It happens. Admittedly it’s not super common, but it happens. And some of them even realize that geek guys have a lot going for them (smart, usually loyal, good job prospects, likely to actually give a damn about what their partners want). If that makes a guy playing games with her uncomfortable (assuming she hasn’t done anything overt to encourage this feeling) then I’d say it’s _his_ problem, and his own insecurity thinking he’s “not good enough” for her and turning that into “she’s making me uncomfortable, so I must shun her!” My husband is a geek. A SF loving, die rolling, computer game playing, anime watching geek. He is overweight and has facial hair. Now he wears glasses, too (of course, now we’ve been married almost twenty years - eventually everyone’s arms get too short to read the book). Someone got to date the good looking well groomed geeky girl. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/193 "2014-02-07T04:44:52Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Now, we do live in a civilized world. Those men didn’t assault you or even say anything out loud. But, subconsciously, it was unpleasant for them with you around. Is this supposed to be a joke? Of course those men said things out loud, and some of them do assault women. I know because it’s happened to me. I don’t want to condemn all geek guys here, many of them are perfectly lovely people and others are guilty of nothing worse than awkwardness, but there are plenty of bad apples out there making things _consciously_ unpleasant for women. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/194 "2014-02-07T14:02:05Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > I’ll tell you why this happened, from the perspective of someone sitting at the other side of a table like that. Your presence was a reminder of what they couldn’t have. A good analogy would be that they were starving and you were a delicious looking piece of food, sitting there just beyond reach. > > And before someone blurts out “sexism, women aren’t supposed to be objects, blah blah blah” : it isn’t a conscious level of thinking. All those men’s brains have dedicated sections of circuitry that will constantly harass them with signals that cause these behaviors. > > Now, we do live in a civilized world. Those men didn’t assault you or even say anything out loud. But, subconsciously, it was unpleasant for them with you around. One of the things that really bugged me about this was that when I was on concom, we had a list of about 2% of the convention attendees that the internal security volunteers were supposed to “keep an eye on” - including one we followed around full time who had a thing for twelve year old girls. Some of them couldn’t tell the difference between fifteen and eighteen, some would give alcohol to minors, some had been caught during previous conventions having sex in stairwells, or doing drugs in public areas, or we knew dealt, or other things that we wanted to make sure didn’t get noticed by the local police force. We couldn’t get rid of them - because we were an “accepting community” - and not only did we embrace gays and lesbians, people in poly relationships, men who hadn’t showered recently, furries, and those for whom Klingon was a second language, we also didn’t shun sex offenders and people whose behavior could get us shut down. You see, when you’ve been shunned in middle school, its very important that you accept everyone - regardless of their hygiene, sexuality, drug use in public, or established pattern of harassing twelve year old girls. But apparently they felt no compunction at all in shunning a good looking young woman because they weren’t “comfortable.” ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/195 "2014-02-07T14:12:02Z")
My ‘rules’ for determining geek status : A geek is any person who is a fan of something that isn’t mainstream. Comics, cosplay, manga, anime, science fiction, roleplaying games, whatever. If you’re only a fan of one of them, then you’re probably a specific kind of geek - comics geek, cosplay geek, et cetera. If you’re a fan of several, then you’re a general geek. Congrats! If you’re a fan of sports, Halo, or the Big Bang Theory, but not something like the items listed above, you’re not. Sorry. Those things pretty much define ‘mainstream’. I’d be happy to recommend some reading if you’re interested in converting, though. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/196 "2014-02-07T14:18:22Z")
> [@mil0](#): > > Yep. I agree completely. That’s why when blacks complain about centuries of oppression or the stigma of urban poverty I, as a Jew, remind them that it’s NOT the same thing as contending with millennia of oppression and a recent historical genocide and that they do not have a legitimate reason to be concerned about cultural appropriation. :smack: Would you _really_ like to play the “who has historically had it worse, Blacks or Jews!” game? ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/197 "2014-02-07T17:54:47Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > One of the things that really bugged me about this was that when I was on concom, we had a list of about 2% of the convention attendees that the internal security volunteers were supposed to “keep an eye on” - including one we followed around full time who had a thing for twelve year old girls. Some of them couldn’t tell the difference between fifteen and eighteen, some would give alcohol to minors, some had been caught during previous conventions having sex in stairwells, or doing drugs in public areas, or we knew dealt, or other things that we wanted to make sure didn’t get noticed by the local police force. We couldn’t get rid of them - because we were an “accepting community” - and not only did we embrace gays and lesbians, people in poly relationships, men who hadn’t showered recently, furries, and those for whom Klingon was a second language, we also didn’t shun sex offenders and people whose behavior could get us shut down. You see, when you’ve been shunned in middle school, its very important that you accept everyone - regardless of their hygiene, sexuality, drug use in public, or established pattern of harassing twelve year old girls. > > But apparently they felt no compunction at all in shunning a good looking young woman because they weren’t “comfortable.” See this is what I find completely unacceptable about some facets of geekdom. This whole ‘we couldn’t get rid of them’ is a crock of shit in my opinion. Some guy is perving on a 12 year old gear in a con? Throw his ass out and ban him forever. Why comprimise the safety of a group of people (children/women) just so you can avoid the awkwardness of ostracizing the inconsideration of another group of people (pedophiles)? Do the ‘pedobears’ of geekdom really deserve more status? Reddit had this problem for a while. People saw no problem with taking posting provocative photos of underage girls and going on an on about their elaborate fantasizes and rationalizing how normal it would be to have a relationship with a 12 year old child. I had an intense debate with my friend’s wife about how their whole community had a responsibility to make the site a safe place if anything by refusing to tolerate creepy behavior. Obviously there’s only so much an annonymous messageboard poster can do, but the least he/she can do is agree that this type of behavior is unacceptable. It all falls under this umbrella of ‘Ostracizers are evil’. Og forbid they call out the bullshit on members of the group who have unacceptable behavior. Its no wonder why many geekdoms can have such narrow demographics- As a 12-year old girl would I really feel safe in a place that is _so accepting_ that the men who might harass or grope me have more of a right to be there than I do? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/198 "2014-02-07T18:07:05Z")
Yep. “ostracizers are evil” - well, except when the people that we are ostracizing are women who remind us of the girls who used to ostracize us in high school. Or anyone who points out that MAYBE we shouldn’t tolerate the guy who is perving on the twelve year old girls in consuite. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/199 "2014-02-07T18:28:19Z")
I’ve been the new kid at a school and by default hung out with the “geeks”. I’ve also made friends with the popular kids. IME, geeks are far more tolerant of deviant behavior for a variety of reasons. 1 - If you’re a popular kid with lots of friends, cutting out a friend or two isn’t too big a deal. If you’re at the bottom rung of the social ladder you’re shit out of luck when it comes to making new friends so you cling to them more desperately. 2 - Popular kids are popular because they subscribe to the norm as it is. The geeks are already outcasts because of their alternative interests. Drawing a line as to which alternative interest is too alternative becomes blurry on the fringe. Toss the guy perving on the 12 year old, but what about the guy perving on the 13 year old? 14? 15? 16? Ostensibly, people should just KNOW not to perve on people inappropriately aged but again… social norms. This isn’t to say that “cool” kids don’t have these problems. It’s just that the self-policing, judging, and ostracizing is better regulated. 3 - Specific to the 12 year old topic - If you can’t find friends your age, you cast a wider net and skew younger/older, distorting what’s appropriate. This compounds when you’re a 15-16 year old and the only attention from the opposite gender you get is from an 11-12 year old and the brain fetishizes that 11-12 year old as “attractive” for the rest of his life. I can’t speak for others but most of my sexual preferences were set by my sexual encounters as a mid-to-late teenager: the girls I dated, the porn I frequented, the actresses I crushed on, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369/200 "2014-02-07T19:01:24Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > 3 - Specific to the 12 year old topic - If you can’t find friends your age, you cast a wider net and skew younger/older, distorting what’s appropriate. This compounds when you’re a 15-16 year old and the only attention from the opposite gender you get is from an 11-12 year old and the brain fetishizes that 11-12 year old as “attractive” for the rest of his life. I can’t speak for others but most of my sexual preferences were set by my sexual encounters as a mid-to-late teenager: the girls I dated, the porn I frequented, the actresses I crushed on, etc. And if you act on those preferences by perving on real life 12 year old girls, do you expect the community to embrace you? Or do you have the common sense to know that whatever your inclinations are, acting on them is inappropriate and you hold yourself in check? Or do you realize that you act inappropriately, and accept being shunned for it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/young-women-and-possessiveness-over-nerd-geek/680369.md?page=11)