# Your children are people! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 23, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981 "2003-05-23T06:07:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/161 "2003-05-27T00:45:06Z")
**Skid Row** , I am sincerely sorry that your childhood experience was so horrible! Your parents **were** abusive, and their activity **was** criminal. As stated in an earlier post, we have used spanking three or four times on our oldest daughter, when other forms of discipline proved entirely ineffective. Our two younger ones have responded very well to other forms of discipline. While I regret the horrible experiences you had as a child, I do resent your implication that **all** parents who have **ever** spanked their children are in the same category as abusive parents like yours. It was certainly not me who said that you should have never had children. But I do wish you would rethink painting with such a broad brush. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/162 "2003-05-27T00:51:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skid Row \* > \*\* > Amazing how _ **vehemently** _ some people will defend their _right_ to beat their kids. Sad, really. > \*\* Keep working at it…you almost have it down. May I suggest the use of a [visual aid](http://fxshow.com/costumes/strawman.jpg) to help you wrap up the final product? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Skid\_Row](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/779978/32.png) [@Skid\_Row](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skid_Row)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/163 "2003-05-27T01:19:03Z")
Are you _ **trying** _ to prove my point? If so - thanks loads. If not, what are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/164 "2003-05-27T01:35:18Z")
If you beat your children, then you are indeed a criminal. If you spank them (not “spank”, but spank, as per the definitions provided earlier in this thread), you are not a criminal. Frankly, there’s a difference between beating a kid and striking them across the clothed buttocks with your hand, using an non-harmful amount of controlled force. And frankly, there’s a difference between standing up for yourself and breaking the bones in someone’s face or knocking out their teeth. Although I’m sure you would vehemently defend your right to have beaten your parents. Sad, really. ---
**Author:** ![Skid\_Row](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/779978/32.png) [@Skid\_Row](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skid_Row)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/165 "2003-05-27T02:26:35Z")
Keep teling yourself that. If it makes you feel better about beating your kids - march on. BTW, you’re not saying that those who are assaulted don’t have the right of self-defense, are you? No, I know you’re not saying that. To be honest, there is **no** difference between standing up for yourself and breaking bones. You just didn’t like my reason. Sad, really. (_Score one for logic._ Please go play elsewhere.) ---
**Author:** ![Skid\_Row](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/779978/32.png) [@Skid\_Row](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skid_Row)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/166 "2003-05-27T02:27:59Z")
_telling_ even. [sup]Preview is my friend. Preview is my friend…[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/167 "2003-05-27T03:24:03Z")
I humbly suggest everyone ignore **Skid Row** , he’s obviously decided not to bother actually reading any posts in this thread and instead prefers to make inflammatory and false statements meant IMHO to bait. He’s obviously missed a few therapy appointments and is directing his misplaced hostility to those on this thread. There’s just no reasoning with someone like that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/168 "2003-05-27T03:33:06Z")
**Skid Row** , so is it abuse if one sees a child about to touch a hot stove and reaches out and smacks her hand before she can do so? If you think so, then you need help. ---
**Author:** ![plain\_jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@plain\_jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plain_jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/169 "2003-05-27T06:31:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hamadryad \* > \*\*I have two small children. A window in their bedroom opens directly onto the roof, and the screen is broken. I’ve told them a billion times that they are not to go out the roof. I’ve carefully explained how they can get hurt. I’ve outlined extensively the breaking of rules involved in going out the window. > > They go out the window. > > What do I do? \*\* Out of curiosity, why don’t you fix the window, or find a way to better child-proof it since the window in question is in their bedroom? That way you remove the danger and the temptation. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/170 "2003-05-27T06:39:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > **Skid Row, so is it abuse if one sees a child about to touch a hot stove and reaches out and smacks her hand before she can do so?** I’d grab the wrist rather than smack the hand, but that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![plain\_jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@plain\_jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plain_jane)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/171 "2003-05-27T06:59:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by plain\_jane \* > \*\*Out of curiosity, why don’t you fix the window… \*\* Sorry Hamadryad, I was reading in order and didn’t realize this question had already come up and been answered as well. Out of further curiosity, have you thought about switching bedrooms with your kids so that the dangerous window is in your bedroom? You wouldn’t have to worry every time they go into their room. As for the OP, I’m in the non-spanking camp. I don’t see the harm in a light swat on the butt or hand if that’s your choice, but otherwise, it just doesn’t sit right with me. Yes, every kid is different, but I can’t bring myself to think that slapping someone hard, or slapping someone’s bare skin is okay. Particularly with an object of any sort, or particularly when the parent is angry and riled up. I had a father that spanked on and off and a mother that made me discuss the situation. I knew the spanking would hurt, and I felt really humiliated baring my lower half to my father so he could spank my butt. (The spanking ended before I hit puberty, but it was still uncomfortable for me.) Although I left (the spanking) feeling humiliated, I knew the pain would subside and I could go on. I’d just have to be more careful about getting caught is all. However, having to sit down and discuss with my mother what I had done, why it was wrong, and how I might better act in the future was torture. Plus, she would discuss her feelings–why she was let down, or upset. And then I would receive my actual punishment–like grounding or some sort of loss (which was also torture to me). Agony! I avoided misbehaving when she was around (to the best of my abilities as a child, anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![Skid\_Row](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/779978/32.png) [@Skid\_Row](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skid_Row)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/172 "2003-05-27T09:57:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lezlers \* > \*\*I humbly suggest everyone ignore **Skid Row** , he’s obviously decided not to bother actually reading any posts in this thread and instead prefers to make inflammatory and false statements meant IMHO to bait. > > He’s obviously missed a few therapy appointments and is directing his misplaced hostility to those on this thread. > > There’s just no reasoning with someone like that. \*\* Wrong again, **Lez**. Read 'em all. Sat here with my mouth agape at the type of people who call themselves “_parents_.” It takes more than biology to make a person a parent. But you seem to think otherwise. Let me suggest **you** read all the previous posts. If you still consider child beating to be effective discipline after that, then I’ll know you have no credibility on this issue. …and **Guin** , you’re telling me that it is not okay to let your child be physically harmed by a stove but it is perfectly okay to let your child be physically harmed by a **parent**?! Take my word for it, **YOU** are in **WAY** more need of help than I’ll ever be. {_I assume you are not a parent. God I hope not._} …again, are you guys **trying** to prove my point? You’re doing a terrific job. ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/173 "2003-05-27T11:42:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skid Row \* > **…and Guin, you’re telling me that it is not okay to let your child be physically harmed by a stove but it is perfectly okay to let your child be physically harmed by a parent?! Take my word for it, YOU are in WAY more need of help than I’ll ever be. {_I assume you are not a parent. God I hope not._}** You would rather allow a child to get burned (even though [superficial burns usually heal in 5 to 6 days](http://www.studenthealth.ucla.edu/health/sha/burns.htm) and [Taking Care of Burns](http://familydoctor.org/handouts/638.html)) rather than a preventative smack? And **Priceguy** , after you grab the hand, do you leave it there or to you pull it away? You don’t want to hurt the child by pulling too hard. You could do some damage there. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/174 "2003-05-27T11:47:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fin\_man \* > \*\*And **Priceguy** , after you grab the hand, do you leave it there or to you pull it away? You don’t want to hurt the child by pulling too hard. You could do some damage there. \*\* I pull the child away, obviously. If that happens to hurt, it’s still better than performing an action whose sole purpose is to inflict pain. ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/175 "2003-05-27T11:52:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > \*\*I pull the child away, obviously. If that happens to hurt, it’s still better than performing an action whose sole purpose is to inflict pain. \*\* Sole purpose is to inflict pain??? If the sole purpose was to inflict pain, why not just let the kid get burnt? While somewhat educational, pain is certainly inflicted. It’s a win-win situation. No change in the pain result but the kid doesn’t have “ill feelings” towards the parent (ok, maybe one day he/she will wonder why mom/dad let him/her get burned all the time) ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/176 "2003-05-27T13:27:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fin\_man \* > **Sole purpose is to inflict pain???** If the purpose of a smack on the hand isn’t to inflict pain, then what is it? If the purpose of a spanking isn’t to inflict pain, then what is it? > [@](#): > > \*\*If the sole purpose was to inflict pain, why not just let the kid get burnt? While somewhat educational, pain is certainly inflicted. It’s a win-win situation. No change in the pain result but the kid doesn’t have “ill feelings” towards the parent (ok, maybe one day he/she will wonder why mom/dad let him/her get burned all the time) \*\* If you want to let your kid get burnt, what can I do? I prefer to pull him/her away. ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/177 "2003-05-27T14:02:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > **If the purpose of a smack on the hand isn’t to inflict pain, then what is it? If the purpose of a spanking isn’t to inflict pain, then what is it?** To correct improper behavior/prevent injury/etc. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > \*\*If you want to let your kid get burnt, what can I do? \*\* Absolutely nothing. And if people want to spank their children, what can you do? Absolutely nothing. No wait, you can equate spanking to child abuse and rant on. BTW, if spanking were child abuse (in the eyes of the law - since posters’ opinions don’t really matter), can you find a case where children were removed from their parents’ custody for occasional spankings? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/178 "2003-05-27T14:11:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fin\_man \* > \*\*BTW, if spanking were child abuse (in the eyes of the law - since posters’ opinions don’t really matter), can you find a case where children were removed from their parents’ custody for occasional spankings? \*\* Since I’ve personally **known** people to whom the phrase “occasional spanking” referred to what the law called “physical abuse”, beatings etc. probably you should attempt to define the term a bit better. Problem is: to _some_ people, ‘occasional spanking’ does indeed refer to physical beatings resulting in bruises, broken bones, blood etc. To most others, the term ‘occasional spanking’ refers to a tap on the butt, smack on the hand etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/179 "2003-05-27T14:22:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fin\_man \* > **To correct improper behavior/prevent injury/etc.** Through inflicting pain. > [@](#): > > \*\*Absolutely nothing. And if people want to spank their children, what can you do? Absolutely nothing. No wait, you can equate spanking to child abuse and rant on. \*\* Kindly point out where I have equated spanking to child abuse. > [@](#): > > \*\*BTW, if spanking were child abuse (in the eyes of the law - since posters’ opinions don’t really matter), can you find a case where children were removed from their parents’ custody for occasional spankings? \*\* Totally irrelevant. We are not discussing legal matters. By the way, I probably could find such a case. You might want to look into a little concept we like to call “rest of the world”. ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981/180 "2003-05-27T14:31:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > **Through inflicting pain.** I never said pain or discomfort was not involved. However, you said “If the purpose of a smack on the hand isn’t to inflict pain, then what is it.” The purpose isn’t to inflict pain. The purpose to correct/prevent. If the purpose was to inflict pain, we would be talking about people hitting their child for no reason - and that is not what I (or many posters) are talking about > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > **Kindly point out where I have equated spanking to child abuse.** After a quick scan of the posts, I mistakenly attributed your name to others’ posts. I’m sorry > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > \*\*Totally irrelevant. We are not discussing legal matters. By the way, I probably could find such a case. You might want to look into a little concept we like to call “rest of the world”. \*\* I don’t believe this to be totally irrelevant. If this thread were to be only talking about “improper parenting decisions” then I would agree. But the term “child abuse” has been raised (again, by others and not you) and this is a legal issue. And I have no idea what you are trying to say with the “rest of the world” comment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-children-are-people/176981.md?page=10)