# Your confessions to a priest, minister etc are not necessarily confidential -
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [June 29, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961 "2014-06-29T21:39:45Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/1 "2014-06-29T21:39:45Z")
I had assumed most confessions of past actions to a Priest, Rabbi, Minister etc. were legally confidential. Interestingly, per this local case, that isn’t necessarily so. While Catholics treat confession as a strictly confidential matter not all Judeo-Christian faiths do the same.
[Bodenweiser fought pastor’s testimony](http://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/local/2014/06/28/bodenweiser-fought-pastors-testimony/11684077/)
> [@](#):
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> GEORGETOWN – Court records unsealed at the end of Eric Bodenweiser’s trial show the onetime political candidate’s defense lawyers strived to prevent his pastor from testifying that Bodenweiser confessed to him guilt about sexually abusing a boy, and even asked a judge to declare part of Delaware’s law on child abuse reporting unconstitutional.
> [@](#):
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> The defense motion said Bodenweiser, in October 2012, “sought the spiritual counseling and guidance of his spiritual leader, Pastor Smith,” after his accuser called a talk radio station to say Bodenweiser had molested him. Bodenweiser thought what he said to Smith would be “strictly confidential between the two,” the motion said. Although Smith later reported the conversation to Delaware State Police, the defense motion argued, that report should not be used at trial because it was a “privileged communication” under Delaware law, a “sacramental confession.”
> [@](#):
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> Prosecutors David Hume IV, John Donahue and Abby Adams, responding in May 2013, argued Bodenweiser should not have seen his talk with Smith as a secret confession because the Sussex County Bible Church’s written procedures for church discipline allowed pastors to inform other church members, or even the entire congregation, of a member’s sin if he or she refused to repent for it.
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> “Once Defendant told Pastor Smith he had repeatedly raped a child, he was aware that the information would be made public, either by the defendant, or by the church,” the prosecutors wrote.
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> The prosecutors did not dispute that the language of section 909 about confessions “applies only to disclosures made during the sacrament of confession, which is a unique requirement of the Catholic Church.” But if that made the law unconstitutional, they argued, the fix should mean deleting the confessional privilege, not enlarging it to apply to people of many other faiths
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### Author:  [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/2 "2014-06-29T21:46:59Z")
I went to a Catholic grade school, when we were getting ready for our first confession we were pretty specially told that, while it is confidential, crimes could be reported to the police. I think they made it clear that if you told them you stole a little trinket from the corner store or took a $5 bill out of the teacher’s purse they weren’t going to call the cops from the confessional, but they wanted to make it clear that if someone admitted to a murder or rape or bank robbery, the priest would report that.
FTR, I have no idea if a Catholic priest is a mandatory reporter or if they can use their discretion.
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### Author:  [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/3 "2014-06-29T21:54:45Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#):
>
> I went to a Catholic grade school, when we were getting ready for our first confession we were pretty specially told that, while it is confidential, crimes could be reported to the police. I think they made it clear that if you told them you stole a little trinket from the corner store or took a $5 bill out of the teacher’s purse they weren’t going to call the cops from the confessional, but they wanted to make it clear that if someone admitted to a murder or rape or bank robbery, the priest would report that.
>
> FTR, I have no idea if a Catholic priest is a mandatory reporter or if they can use their discretion.
> [@](#):
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> The sacramental seal is inviolable. Quoting Canon 983.1 of the Code of Canon Law, the Catechism states, “…It is a crime for a confessor in any way to betray a penitent by word or in any other manner or for any reason” (No. 2490). A priest, therefore, cannot break the seal to save his own life, to protect his good name, to refute a false accusation, to save the life of another, to aid the course of justice (like reporting a crime), or to avert a public calamity.
[http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0059.html](http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0059.html)
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### Author:  [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/4 "2014-06-29T22:44:24Z")
It shouldn’t be confidential. The whole concept is part of what kept the child abuse scandal secret for so long.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/5 "2014-06-29T23:12:01Z")
> [@Antinor01](#):
>
> It shouldn’t be confidential. The whole concept is part of what kept the child abuse scandal secret for so long.
No, I don’t think so. I’m not aware of a single instance in which the fact of molestation was disclosed via confession – and that is, of course, as it should be. No one’s aware of such confessions, except those priests who heard them. The child abuse scandals were virtually always predicated on the church authorities being made aware of abuse from other reports – parents, teachers, the children themselves – and then failing to act as they should have.
> [@Joey\_P](#):
>
> I went to a Catholic grade school, when we were getting ready for our first confession we were pretty specially told that, while it is confidential, crimes could be reported to the police. I think they made it clear that if you told them you stole a little trinket from the corner store or took a $5 bill out of the teacher’s purse they weren’t going to call the cops from the confessional, but they wanted to make it clear that if someone admitted to a murder or rape or bank robbery, the priest would report that.
>
> FTR, I have no idea if a Catholic priest is a mandatory reporter or if they can use their discretion.
This is absolutely incorrect. The police cannot be called as a result of what you say in confession – not only is the priest, as **zoid** correctly notes per Can. 983 ß1, forbidden by canon law from revealing a confession, but the evidence codes of all fifty states also make that communication privileged and generally inadmissible at either criminal or civil trials.
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### Author:  [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/6 "2014-06-30T00:09:54Z")
While in the Army I had a friend, Catholic, who went AWOL. He came back and had all kinds of charges thrown at him. I don’t know what he did or didn’t do while he was away, but he did make confession to a Catholic chaplain, and said chaplain got pressured to tell what my friend had said to him. Legal and military leaned on him, but he wouldn’t budge.
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### Author:  [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/7 "2014-06-30T00:20:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> No, I don’t think so. I’m not aware of a single instance in which the fact of molestation was disclosed via confession – and that is, of course, as it should be. No one’s aware of such confessions, except those priests who heard them. The child abuse scandals were virtually always predicated on the church authorities being made aware of abuse from other reports – parents, teachers, the children themselves – and then failing to act as they should have.
Perhaps not the right example. The whole idea that talking to a religious figure means they don’t have to report you to the police is bullshit regardless. It’s disgusting that the law generally goes along with it.
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### Author:  [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/8 "2014-06-30T00:57:47Z")
Oregon:
> [@](#):
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> Rule 506. Member of clergy-penitent privilege
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> (1) As used in this section, unless the context requires otherwise:
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> (a) Confidential communication means a communication made privately and not intended for further disclosure except to other persons present in furtherance of the purpose of the communication.
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> (b) Member of the clergy means a minister of any church, religious denomination or organization or accredited Christian Science practitioner who in the course of the discipline or practice of that church, denomination or organization is authorized or accustomed to hearing confidential communications and, under the discipline or tenets of that church, denomination or organization, has a duty to keep such communications secret.
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> (2) A member of the clergy may not be examined as to any confidential communication made to the member of the clergy in the members professional character unless consent to the disclosure of the confidential communication is given by the person who made the communication.
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> (3) Even though the person who made the communication has given consent to the disclosure, a member of the clergy may not be examined as to any confidential communication made to the member in the members professional character if, under the discipline or tenets of the members church, denomination or organization, the member has an absolute duty to keep the communication confidential. [1981 c.892 §35; 1999 c.7 §1]
Under psychotherapist-patient or counselor-patient privilege, there are exceptions. No exceptions appear in this clergy section.
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### Author:  [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/9 "2014-06-30T01:06:02Z")
The rite of confession in my Book of Common Prayer (or other equivalents) says something to the effect of ‘the seal of the confessional is absolute’. In other words, my church (Anglican/Episcopalian) has the same discipline on this matter as the Catholics do. I believe Lutherans and of course Eastern Orthodox treat confession as a sacrament too, I’m not sure what discipline they follow. This doesn’t rule out, of course, the priest making your going to the police, etc., a condition of absolution, as far as I know. And I would expect that in many cases that’s what the confessor would do.
I wouldn’t support the proposed changes to the law, but even if they do go through, it’s worth saying that _most_ confessions, even of criminal acts, will still be confidential. If you confess, say, drunk driving, or theft, or fraud, or even murder, those will still be protected by the secrecy of the confessional. It’s only crimes against children that may not be. ( **Bricker** please correct me if I’m wrong).
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### Author:  [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/10 "2014-06-30T01:10:50Z")
My rabbi once told me that she can do counseling as a therapist, and has some training from rabbinical school to do counseling, but in order for the therapist-patient privilege to apply, it has to be established at the outset of the session that the person is there for counseling similar to that which a secular therapist might give. She has the person sign something, IIRC. Otherwise, things that come up at pre-bar mitzvah conferences with families, private Talmud study, funeral planning, and a dozen other reasons she might meet with a congregant, are not legally confidential, even though she personally regards them thus, and does not discuss them with anyone, except when she needs outside advice (like if she wanted to find out if there was a legal way to transport a body to another state for burial without embalming it first), and then she doesn’t use names.
Also, I think the Episcopal Church has the sacrament of confession, with more or less the same wording as the Roman Catholic confession. A confession to an Episcopal priest is therefore also confidential, as long as it was a ritual confession. Just confessing something to an Episcopal priest in conversation isn’t confidential, though.
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### Author:  [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/11 "2014-06-30T02:07:14Z")
I thought this was common knowledge. Discussions with psychologists, doctors, etc., are also not completely confidential.
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### Author:  [@svd678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/svd678)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/12 "2014-06-30T03:39:40Z")
It is my understanding that the more recent laws about child abuse require reporting, even if otherwise privileged. A serious crime about to be committed is not privileged and should be reported.
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/13 "2014-06-30T03:52:02Z")
No one should have the right to keep secret a crime of such magnitude
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### Author:  [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/14 "2014-06-30T04:13:12Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#):
>
> No one should have the right to keep secret a crime of such magnitude
I am not Catholic, but it seems to me that the idea of separation of church and state should go both ways. Even if one may disagree with the point of the sacrament, that it’s not like it was made up as a way of circumventing the justice system.
Besides, I’d tend to be of the opinion that I think the idea of it remaining absolute is, at worst, neutral, if not overall a net positive. The point being, I don’t think anyone is inclined to take part in a confession unless they believe the sacrament is of value to them. Further, fear of being turned it would likely just further discourage it, and then that priest receiving the confession would not even hear about it and not be afforded the opportunity to compel that individual to confess. So, if I had, say, committed a murder, if I wasn’t Catholic and believed I must, why would I tell someone at all, especially if I believed I may get turned over to the police? And, someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I do believe the priest is empowered to deny atonement for crimes on a condition of turning oneself in to the authorities. So, essentially, as I see it, it seems we have a small chance of criminals turning themselves if we allow the confession to remain absolute, and we get pretty much nothing if we don’t.
That said, if there is any evidence that confession has been shown to be instrumental in covering up crimes, particularly the abuse scandals, I could be convinced to change my mind. But I’d also have to be convinced that people, particularly priests that had been involved in the scandal, and would have necessarily been well aware of such laws compelling them to tell the authorities, would have still confessed.
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### Author:  [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/15 "2014-06-30T04:13:31Z")
> [@svd678](#):
>
> It is my understanding that the more recent laws about child abuse require reporting, even if otherwise privileged. A serious crime about to be committed is not privileged and should be reported.
Again, as far as I know that only applies to child abuse (if such laws have been passed yet), not crimes in general.
A priest is under no legal requirement (and is of course forbidden by church law) from, say, telling the cops if you mention (in confession) that you fantasize about assassinating the Prime Minister of Canada, or something like that.
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### Author:  [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/16 "2014-06-30T06:09:30Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#):
>
> I went to a Catholic grade school, when we were getting ready for our first confession we were pretty specially told that, while it is confidential, crimes could be reported to the police. I think they made it clear that if you told them you stole a little trinket from the corner store or took a $5 bill out of the teacher’s purse they weren’t going to call the cops from the confessional, but they wanted to make it clear that if someone admitted to a murder or rape or bank robbery, the priest would report that.
>
> FTR, I have no idea if a Catholic priest is a mandatory reporter or if they can use their discretion.
I think you might be slightly misremembering (not that I’d know for sure :p). They may have said something like what my Catholic school did when preparing for our first Confession. We were told the priest canNOT tell anyone what you have confessed, even if it’s a major crime like murder. _However_, a priest would absolutely be able to make confessing your crime to police/law enforcement a requirement for absolution. No forgiveness until then.
I get the logic. It allows the priest to obey his sacred duty to secrecy while making it clear that Confession isn’t a get out of jail free card (haw! I kill me. :D). And logically, absolution is likely pretty important to the penitent - if s/he didn’t care about God’s forgiveness, s/he wouldn’t likely feel the need to go to Confession in the first place.
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/17 "2014-06-30T08:01:37Z")
I forget the movie, but I believe in it, an IRA terrorist kills someone, realizes a priest witnessed the murder, & then goes to confess to that priest so he cannot testify as a witness against him. Now, that does not apply, does it? The priest cannot reveal the confession but he can report the crime he witnessed, right?
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### Author:  [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/18 "2014-06-30T08:03:32Z")
It wasn’t an airtight seal for the newly-created Church of England. Catherine Howard told her confessor about her teenage flings. Since her husband was also Henry VIII and head of the Church, her confessor was allowed to rat her out. They decapitated her lady in waiting for good measure as well, who had to put her throat on the block still wet with her mistress’ blood.
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/19 "2014-06-30T09:17:23Z")
There’s no mention of that in the [wikipedia article on Catherine Howard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_Howard#Downfall). Where are you getting it from?
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### Author:  [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2014, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-confessions-to-a-priest-minister-etc-are-not-necessarily-confidential/691961/20 "2014-06-30T11:46:15Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> There’s no mention of that in the [wikipedia article on Catherine Howard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_Howard#Downfall). Where are you getting it from?
David Starkey.
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