# "Your dead kids don't trump my Constitutional rights" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471 "2014-05-28T16:41:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/81 "2014-05-29T16:55:02Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I truly believe that gun control advocates aren’t acting in good faith and aren’t trustworthy. And as I said earlier in the thread, I think this kind of black and white thinking conveniently gets you out of a tougher discussion. > [@](#): > > I am totally open to debate. I’m curious what debate you think should be had that isn’t being had. I think we should be able to have a rational debate on tightening up gun laws. Those discussions are generally short-circuited by fearmongering, lobbing, and an unreasonable reading of the Constitution. That’s my argument. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/82 "2014-05-29T17:06:03Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > Not a tactful thing for joe the plumber to say but absolutely correct none the less. This. I’m not sure of exactly the context and how tone deaf this statement actually was. But it’s completely true. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/83 "2014-05-29T17:07:08Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > We should decide gun policy based on the statements of a grieving parent of a gun victim? Or tens of thousands of them, even. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/84 "2014-05-29T17:09:59Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > The gun industry is destroying itself the same way the comic book industry did. It used to be comic books were cheap and ubiquitous. You could buy them everywhere and they appealed to a broad demographic. Then in the 1980’s the comic book companies realized they could make a lot of money by marketing specifically to a narrow group of hard-core comic fans. They problem was they got so good at servicing their hardcore fans they lost the mass market. Comic book sales are 1/10 of what they were fifty years ago. Unless you go to a specialty comic book store, they’re hard to find. Now, lots of kids grow up without reading comic books, starving the industry of future fans. > [@Bone](#): > > I’m curious why you think the comic book market has dwindled so much and how they marketed to a narrow group - but that’s probably another thread. I thought the oversaturation of the market combined with much cheaper sales through internet hurt the industry. AIUI the comic book industry was mostly killed off in the late fifties/early sixties because of morality campaigns (and their decision to self-censor in response.) They got rid of scantly clad/violent superheroes and replaced them with Archie. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/85 "2014-05-29T18:13:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And as I said earlier in the thread, I think this kind of black and white thinking conveniently gets you out of a tougher discussion. I’m not following the point you are trying to make. I think you saying that some proposals are being rejected not based on their merit, but simply because there is no goodwill between opposing sides. This is the slippery slope you were mentioning before I think. I agree there is an element of that. > [@](#): > > I think we should be able to have a rational debate on tightening up gun laws. Those discussions are generally short-circuited by fearmongering, lobbing, and an unreasonable reading of the Constitution. That’s my argument. I think so too. I don’t think it can be had with Bloomberg and Feinstein as the standard bearers on the gun control side. Same goes for the more extreme posters on this board. From my point of view, gun control advocates need to condemn and marginalize those people as a starting point. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/86 "2014-05-29T18:17:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And as I said earlier in the thread, I think this kind of black and white thinking conveniently gets you out of a tougher discussion. > > I think we should be able to have a rational debate on tightening up gun laws. Those discussions are generally short-circuited by fearmongering, lobbing, and an unreasonable reading of the Constitution. That’s my argument. Your side has been heard. The country has been debating this issue for decades. Your side doesn’t have the votes. Many politicians who ran on gun bans/registration/confiscation issues had to find a new line of work after they weren’t elected/reelected. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/87 "2014-05-29T18:17:55Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m not following the point you are trying to make. I think you saying that some proposals are being rejected not based on their merit, but simply because there is no goodwill between opposing sides. This is the slippery slope you were mentioning before I think. I agree there is an element of that. I’m saying that you’re calling all gun control advocates dishonest because you’ve decided some of them are dishonest. At best that’s a type of intellectual laziness. And the slippery slope is the rejection of even the idea of compromising. > [@](#): > > I think so too. I don’t think it can be had with Bloomberg and Feinstein as the standard bearers on the gun control side. People more extreme than Bloomberg and Feinstein have been carrying the standard on the other side for 20 years. > [@](#): > > From my point of view, gun control advocates need to condemn and marginalize those people as a starting point. Right. And once we’ve met all your conditions, I’m sure we can start to negotiate. Of course that’s not how negotiation really works… ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/88 "2014-05-29T18:20:17Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m not following the point you are trying to make. I think you saying that some proposals are being rejected not based on their merit, but simply because there is no goodwill between opposing sides. This is the slippery slope you were mentioning before I think. I agree there is an element of that. > I think so too. I don’t think it can be had with Bloomberg and Feinstein as the standard bearers on the gun control side. Same goes for the more extreme posters on this board. From my point of view, gun control advocates need to condemn and marginalize those people as a starting point. And who will your side be condemning and marginalizing before talks begin? Or is that only supposed to happen for one side? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/89 "2014-05-29T18:22:13Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think so too. I don’t think it can be had with Bloomberg and Feinstein as the standard bearers on the gun control side. Same goes for the more extreme posters on this board. From my point of view, gun control advocates need to condemn and marginalize those people as a starting point. A list of gun control advocates that you don’t think are “extreme”, if you please? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/90 "2014-05-29T18:29:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m saying that you’re calling all gun control advocates dishonest because you’ve decided some of them are dishonest. At best that’s a type of intellectual laziness. And the slippery slope is the rejection of even the idea of compromising. It’s not laziness - it’s effective. There is no reason to engage when gun rights advocates are winning in the courts. Strategically, it makes more sense to just dismiss gun control advocates because they are losing. It’s the same reason the incumbent candidate limits public debates during election cycles. The strategy is working, currently. If you want that to change, then the burden would be on you to offer something that makes it worthwhile to change. > [@](#): > > People more extreme than Bloomberg and Feinstein have been carrying the standard on the other side for 20 years. Who? Who in a position of power in the legislative or executive branch is comparable? > [@Airbeck](#): > > And who will your side be condemning and marginalizing before talks begin? Or is that only supposed to happen for one side? I’m happy to call out people acting stupidly that are on my side both on this board and elected folks. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/91 "2014-05-29T18:33:08Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/92 "2014-05-29T18:33:31Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It’s not laziness - it’s effective. There is no reason to engage when gun rights advocates are winning in the courts. Strategically, it makes more sense to just dismiss gun control advocates because they are losing. Thank you! This is the kind of repulsive honesty I was asking for. > [@](#): > > If you want that to change, then the burden would be on you to offer something that makes it worthwhile to change. That already happened, and for some reason change still wasn’t worthwhile. > [@](#): > > Who? Who in a position of power in the legislative or executive branch is comparable? [Here are around 40 of them.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/04/17/manchin-toomey-gun-amendment-fails/) ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/93 "2014-05-29T18:36:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A list of gun control advocates that you don’t think are “extreme”, if you please? I don’t actually know. The discussion is quite polarized and the moderates involved don’t get nearly as much coverage. Any suggestions? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/94 "2014-05-29T18:44:07Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I don’t actually know. The discussion is quite polarized and the moderates involved don’t get nearly as much coverage. Any suggestions? Since I have no idea what you might consider a reasonable gun control advocate to be, I’m afraid you’ll have to provide your own list. Surely there must be one or two that you consider to be reasonable? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/95 "2014-05-29T18:45:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That already happened, and for some reason change still wasn’t worthwhile. It has happened? When? What has been worthwhile to engage on? Background checks? I would actually support the background checks in a vacuum but it doesn’t make sense to strategically for reasons I mentioned above. I’m in CA - we already have background checks on ALL firearm purchases. We also have both a long gun and handgun registry. Magazine limits, purchase limits, and virtually no CCW. Even with all that, new gun control measures are proposed here on a regular basis. Do you think it’s reasonable to believe that would also happen at the national level after some form of Machin-Toomey were to be passed? > [@](#): > > Here are around 40 of them. Do you really think that anyone who voted against Machin-Toomey is equivalent on the spectrum to Bloomberg or Feinstein? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/96 "2014-05-29T18:46:28Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It has happened? When? What has been worthwhile to engage on? Background checks? I would actually support the background checks in a vacuum but it doesn’t make sense to strategically for reasons I mentioned above. Why are you bothering to ask for reasonable proposals when you’re admitting you’d reject them out of hand just because you can? > [@](#): > > I’m in CA - we already have background checks on ALL firearm purchases. We also have both a long gun and handgun registry. Magazine limits, purchase limits, and virtually no CCW. Even with all that, new gun control measures are proposed here on a regular basis. Do you think it’s reasonable to believe that would also happen at the national level after some form of Machin-Toomey were to be passed? No, because I think anyone with minimal familiarity with politics understands that California is more liberal than the country at large. > [@](#): > > Do you really think that anyone who voted against Machin-Toomey is equivalent on the spectrum to Bloomberg or Feinstein? Yes, that kind of opposition to expanded background checks is rather extreme. We know 90% of the country supports them. And you also asked for people with power. Bloomberg is a wealthy guy who’s not in elected office anymore. Feinstein is a senator, and that bill was killed by her colleagues. Of course it had majority support but you know what that’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/97 "2014-05-29T19:03:31Z")
Joe the Plumber sums up our current state of affairs pretty well. I largely agree with [this essay](http://theweek.com/article/index/262219/there-is-no-catastrophe-so-ghastly-that-america-will-reform-its-gun-laws#axzz338Fzn16x), which made the same point from a different political perspective: > [@](#): > > Look, we’ve collectively decided, as a country, that the occasional massacre is okay with us. It’s the price we’re willing to pay for our precious Second Amendment freedoms. We’re content to forfeit the lives of a few dozen schoolkids a year as long as we get to keep our guns. The people have spoken, in a cheering civics-class example of democracy in action. > > It’s hard to imagine what ghastly catastrophe could possibly change America’s minds about guns if the little bloody bookbags of Newtown did not. After that atrocity, it seemed as if we would finally enact some obvious, long-overdue half-measures. But perfectly reasonable, moderate legislation expanding background checks and banning assault weapons and high-capacity magazines was summarily killed in the Senate for no reason other than that a sufficient number of United States senators are owned by the NRA. It made our official position as a nation nakedly explicit: we don’t care about any number of murdered children, no matter how many, or how young. We want our guns. > > … > > An annoying thing about living in a republic is that you can’t feel completely blameless for the ruinous state of your nation. But the happy loophole is that responsibility for decision-making is so broadly diffused across millions of your fellow citizens that you can always tell yourself that you did what you could but the Other Guys steamrolled you so it’s all their fault. My own contribution toward ending gun violence so far has been to feel sick with rage and loathing toward the NRA. Occasionally I’ll draw a mean cartoon about it. It’s easy and fun to mock gun fanatics, because they’re so selfish and scared and weak and mean. It’s also pointless, an exercise in frustration and helplessness. Seeing the NRA repeatedly defeat any gun legislation, brutally effective as the Soviets crushing an uprising, has incrementally demoralized me and given me an excuse to give up. As William Greider wrote: “powerlessness also corrupts.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/98 "2014-05-29T19:28:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Of course it had majority support but you know what that’s worth. You tell me. “Civil rights are not something to be voted on,” was a common sentiment here on the SDMB. What do YOU think majority support should mean? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/99 "2014-05-29T19:34:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You tell me. “Civil rights are not something to be voted on,” was a common sentiment here on the SDMB. > > What do YOU think majority support should mean? You do understand that I was talking about filibusters in the Senate, right? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471/100 "2014-05-29T19:58:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why are you bothering to ask for reasonable proposals when you’re admitting you’d reject them out of hand just because you can? While I acknowledge the real politik of the current landscape, I think it’s fair to say that for the sake of discussion on this board, that the idea of potential slippery slope should be tabled (not ignored). It does tend to stifle discussion on the merits of any particular issue. I’m willing to refrain from that line of argument for the purpose of discussion. > [@](#): > > No, because I think anyone with minimal familiarity with politics understands that California is more liberal than the country at large. As the most populous state in the nation, and as one who is further on the control side of the gun rights spectrum, CA is a real world example of how far things can swing. It’s legitimate to point to all the regulation that exists in CA both for the purposes of comparison to other states, as well as an example of true motivations of gun control advocates. > [@](#): > > Yes, that kind of opposition to expanded background checks is rather extreme. We know 90% of the country supports them. I think that figure is actually lower, but still a significant majority. In any event, I’m struggling to see how wanting to stick to the status quo (defeating the bill) is even remotely close to the positions that Feinstein and Bloomberg have taken with regard to gun bans that would affect millions. These aren’t the same - not even close. I do believe that the background checks failed because they came immediately after the proposals to ban assault weapons and magazines. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-dead-kids-dont-trump-my-constitutional-rights/689471.md?page=6)