# Your Grace, you're an ass **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 2, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140 "2005-11-02T19:33:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/1 "2005-11-02T19:33:13Z")
The Archbishop of Canterbury [said](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=367333&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=&ct=5) that it was a sin to teach the world our hymns. You’re an ass, your Grace. Most people enjoy a good sing-song, and if it helps your missionaries, why not use it? Or would you rather we used the methods of the Middle Ages? As for developing their own songs, have you any idea how hard it is to write a good one? And ‘cultural captives’? Umm… has it ever occured to you that Western culture is actually superior to some other cultures. You know, that ethos of tolerance, fair play, mercy, charity, etc? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/2 "2005-11-02T19:37:59Z")
So, how is it a sin to spread religious songs to other cultures… but not a sin to spread the _religion_ to other cultures? From what I can tell, he seems to have no problem with that… ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/3 "2005-11-02T19:48:31Z")
Actually he said the sin was cultural hegemony, of which the hymns are a part. > [@](#): > > He said: “In all sorts of ways the Church over the centuries has lent itself to the error, indeed the sin, of trying to make cultural captives, whether it is the mass export of Hymns Ancient and Modern to the remote parts of the mission field, or the abiding colonial shadow, the shadow of the British Empire that still hangs over our Communion.” It may or may not be a “sin” but it does make the world less culturally rich. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/4 "2005-11-02T19:49:35Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Umm… has it ever occured to you that Western culture is actually superior to some other cultures. You know, that ethos of tolerance, fair play, mercy, charity, etc? Ah, yes; I can think of any number of examples of Western cultural superiority. Madonna, for instance (no, not that one, the one from Detroit). ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/5 "2005-11-02T20:09:11Z")
> [@The Archbishop of Canterbury](#): > > …the shadow of the British Empire that still hangs over our Communion. If that cussed stubborn sun would just get around to setting on it, this wouldn’t be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/6 "2005-11-02T20:12:31Z")
It seems like a vaguely reasonable argument to me. While I wouldn’t call it a sin (I wouldn’t call anything a sin, I suppose), I do agree that it’s unfortunate that a religion would promote the loss of cultural diversity. Yes, making new songs is hard, but that’s the point. Should the builders of Notre Dame have just looked at the Athenian Parthenon and said, “architecture is hard, let’s copy this!” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/7 "2005-11-02T21:10:01Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > It seems like a vaguely reasonable argument to me. While I wouldn’t call it a sin (I wouldn’t call anything a sin, I suppose), I do agree that it’s unfortunate that a religion would promote the loss of cultural diversity. Yes, making new songs is hard, but that’s the point. Should the builders of Notre Dame have just looked at the Athenian Parthenon and said, “architecture is hard, let’s copy this!” Yeah, but what’s the larger component of a culture? The culture’s religiously themed songs, or the culture’s actual religion? I wouldn’t really have a problem with this guy if he were complaining about forcing Christianity on other cultures as a whole, but his complaint is that we’re not allowing the former heathens to write their own songs glorifying Jesus. Seems he’s totally missing the larger issue, here, as regards cultural imperialism. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/8 "2005-11-02T21:24:32Z")
**Miller** , why do you hate God? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/9 "2005-11-02T21:28:21Z")
Well, I’ll just be taking my Coke and going away now. ---
**Author:** ![Hassan\_Ibn\_Sabbah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/91b2a8/32.png) [@Hassan\_Ibn\_Sabbah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hassan_Ibn_Sabbah)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/10 "2005-11-02T21:38:51Z")
The Archbishop as got something going…I think it is a sin to export such Christian trash music like Switchfoot and Creed on an unexpecting world. What a horrible thing to do to the poor world. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/11 "2005-11-02T21:58:14Z")
So this is like a reverse white man’s burden? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/12 "2005-11-02T22:01:06Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > **Miller** , why do you hate God? He used to beat me up in Jr. High. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_The\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@Bill\_The\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_The_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/13 "2005-11-02T22:03:31Z")
How hard is it to write a good song? Obviously, harder than the hymn writers of yestercentury – they borrowed heavily from secular music of the day. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/14 "2005-11-02T22:15:52Z")
So I guess he DOESN’T want to teach the world to sing? (In perfect or imperfect harmony) ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/15 "2005-11-02T22:20:19Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > You’re an ass, your Grace. I thought it should be “You’re an ass, you Emminence.” Is it different in the C of E? ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/16 "2005-11-02T22:21:42Z")
> [@fushj00mang](#): > > I thought it should be “You’re an ass, you Emminence.” Is it different in the C of E? Er…is it different than in the CATHOLIC church than the C of E. (not to self, proofread proofread proofread :smack: ) ---
**Author:** ![blackhobyah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blackhobyah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blackhobyah)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/17 "2005-11-02T22:55:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, but what’s the larger component of a culture? The culture’s religiously themed songs, or the culture’s actual religion? I wouldn’t really have a problem with this guy if he were complaining about forcing Christianity on other cultures as a whole, but his complaint is that we’re not allowing the former heathens to write their own songs glorifying Jesus. Seems he’s totally missing the larger issue, here, as regards cultural imperialism. “Your Grace” is the correct title, since the Archbishop of Canterbury is styled “The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury”. I suspect that if you do a bit more research on Rowan Williams you’ll find that he’s probably not all that keen on missionaries either. He’s a controversial theologian with a boatload of views which have caused considerable disquiet amongst more conservative religious. He has, for example, objected to the anti-gay bias of the Church and to the war in Iraq, as well as holding some contentious views on doctrine. > [@Quartz](#): > > And ‘cultural captives’? Umm… has it ever occured to you that Western culture is actually superior to some other cultures. You know, that ethos of tolerance, fair play, mercy, charity, etc? Indeed. And of course, these qualities are so notably absent from any other cultures, current or past? As an Australian, knowing the child mortality rate and life expectancy of Australia’s indigenous people, not to mention the two pieces of current legislation about to be passed in Parliament, I, for one, wouldn’t be so smug about Western Culture’s “superiority”. And truly, given the serious and thoughtful nature of The Archbishop of Canterbury’s intellectual attainments, I suspect that an idea this insular and ignorant quite possibly hasn’t occurred to him. I commend to you his example. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/18 "2005-11-02T23:06:40Z")
> [@blackhobyah](#): > > “Your Grace” is the correct title, since the Archbishop of Canterbury is styled “The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury”. Good to know, but it was **fushjoomang** who was confused by his title, not I. > [@](#): > > I suspect that if you do a bit more research on Rowan Williams you’ll find that he’s probably not all that keen on missionaries either. He’s a controversial theologian with a boatload of views which have caused considerable disquiet amongst more conservative religious. > > He has, for example, objected to the anti-gay bias of the Church and to the war in Iraq, as well as holding some contentious views on doctrine. That’s nice, but I wasn’t under the impression that he was an arch-conservative. I’d pretty much assumed he was a liberal, what with the whole “cultural imperialism” thing he was working. I just think this is a rather stupid angle of attack on that particular issue. But, all I know about the man and his beliefs are the ones gleaned from the OP’s link, which I’m more than willing to believe are incomplete. There may be a context in which his statements about hymns have some relevancy, but that context is not readily apparent. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/19 "2005-11-02T23:24:13Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > I do agree that it’s unfortunate that a religion would promote the loss of cultural diversity I don’t miss the loss of slavery, the lack of consideration for others etc. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140/20 "2005-11-02T23:25:46Z")
Hmmm… that can be read two ways, one unfortunate. I mean the loss of slavery and the loss of lack of consideration for others. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-grace-youre-an-ass/329140.md?page=2)