# Your Latin expertise is needed once again **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 12, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086 "2013-10-12T19:20:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kamrusepas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8c91f0/32.png) [@Kamrusepas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamrusepas)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/1 "2013-10-12T19:20:59Z")
Hi SD, I’ve been wondering for a while what the correct translation of “eternal darkness” would be in Latin. I know a couple of Latin words for darkness (obscura and tenebrae), and the word for eternal (aeternae), but I’d like to hear from someone who actually knows about the subject 😃 ---
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/2 "2013-10-12T19:25:23Z")
obscura is an adjective. I would use the noun tenebrae. tenebrae aeternae ---
**Author:** ![Kamrusepas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8c91f0/32.png) [@Kamrusepas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamrusepas)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/3 "2013-10-12T20:08:49Z")
Oh hey, while we’re on the subject (can’t I modify the earlier message?), could I get a correct translation on “night eternal”? Thanks for the reply to PSXer. ---
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/4 "2013-10-12T20:22:46Z")
nox aeterna ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/5 "2013-10-13T01:05:58Z")
As with any Latin translation of a noun, we must ask how the noun is to be used in context. Is the eternal darkness doing something (“Eternal darkness will devour you!”), or is something being done to it (“Beware the eternal darkness!”)? Or maybe we’re talking about something pertaining to it (“The chill of eternal darkness”), or perhaps it’s the recipient of something (“You shall be delivered unto eternal darkness”). Or possibly prepositions might be involved (“He shall deliver you from eternal darkness”). ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/6 "2013-10-13T06:33:50Z")
Tenebrae means shadows, not darkness. Nox aeterna is a good match. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/7 "2013-10-13T07:57:28Z")
_Ne cadant in obscurum_ from the Requiem Mass means “let them not fall into darkness”, so _obscurum_ looks perfectly cromulent to me. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/8 "2013-10-13T14:02:07Z")
Obscurum is an adjective; “let them not fall into that (place) which is dark” would be a more literal translation; “let them not fall into Hell” is what it actually _means_. Please don’t assume that because a word in a sentence occupies more or less the same place/has a similar meaning as another word in another language’s equivalent sentence, that the two words are either the same grammatically or have exactly the same meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/9 "2013-10-13T14:52:43Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Obscurum is an adjective; “let them not fall into that (place) which is dark” would be a more literal translation; “let them not fall into Hell” is what it actually _means_. Please don’t assume that because a word in a sentence occupies more or less the same place/has a similar meaning as another word in another language’s equivalent sentence, that the two words are either the same grammatically or have exactly the same meaning. _Obscurum_ is an adjective that can be used metonymically as a noun, just as we might say “let them not fall into the dark”. **Malacandra** ’s translation “let them not fall into darkness” is appropriate and in fact standard for this liturgical phrase. However, I agree that _obscurum_ is not necessarily the best translation of “darkness” for a phrase like “eternal darkness”. _Tenebrae_ “the shadows, darkness” is better if you want to avoid the night-specific connotations of _nox_. _Obscuritas_ is perhaps the closest to “darkness” in the literal sense, but it sounds more technical than poetic or dramatic. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/10 "2013-10-13T17:02:38Z")
_Tenebrae_ is often translated as “shadows” because it is plural in Latin, unlike “darkness” in English, but it does in fact mean “darkness.” “Shadows” would be _umbrae_. In the note on _tenebrae_ in Lewis & Short, they say it’s stronger than _obscuritas_ but weaker than _caligo_. I’m not familiar with the last but “gloom” seems to be a better translation. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/11 "2013-10-14T18:23:42Z")
Caligo is really fog – gloom works metaphorically but I don’t think caligo is a good choice here. Tenebrae or nominal obscurum are better. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/12 "2013-10-14T20:14:30Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > Caligo is really fog – gloom works metaphorically but I don’t think caligo is a good choice here. Tenebrae or nominal obscurum are better. My underline Do you mean “nominative”? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/13 "2013-10-14T20:28:47Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > My underline > > Do you mean “nominative”? I think **Daphne** meant “_obscurum_ as a noun, ‘obscurity, darkness’ rather than _obscurum_ as an adjective, ‘obscure, dark’”. Nominal vs. adjectival, in other words. _This post has not been fact-checked or approved for content by **DaphneBlack** _. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/14 "2013-10-14T22:25:22Z")
Kimstu correctly surmised my meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/15 "2013-10-15T15:40:32Z")
From [Döderlein’s Hand-book of Latin Synonymes](file:///I:/Latin/Dictionaries/Latin%20Synonyms.htm): > [@](#): > > **Obscurum; Tenebræ; Caligo; Tenebricosus; Opacus; Umbrosus**. 1. **Obscurum** (σκοτερόν) denotes darkness as an obstruction of light, like σκότος in opp. to illustre. Auct. ad Her. iii. 19, 32. Plin. Pan. 69; whereas **tenebræ** (δνοφεραί) as the absence of light,) like ζόφος, κνέφας,) in opp. to _lux_. Cic. Ep. ad Q. Fr. i. 2; lastly, **caligo** (from _celare_) as the positive opposite to light and brightness, like ἀχλύς. **Caligo** denotes a greater degree of darkness than **tenebræ** ; **tenebræ** than **obscuritas** ; **obscuritas** than **opacum** and **umbrosum**. Cic. Acad. iv. 2_3, 72. Sensus quidem non obscuros facit sed tenebricosos. Plin. Ep. vii. 21. Cubicula obductis velis opaca, nec tamen obscura facio_. Tac. H. ii. 32. _Senatum et populum nunquam obscurari nomina, etsi aliquando obumbrentur_. Hence, figuratively, **obscurus** 151 denotes only an insignificant person, of whom nobody takes notice; whereas **tenebricosus** something positively bad, which seeks darkness that it may remain unobserved. 2. **Opacus** denotes shady, with reference to a pleasant and beneficial coolness, in opp. to _apertus_ and _apricus_, like εὔσκιος; whereas **umbrosus** (_umbra_, ἀμαυρός,) implies a depth of shade approaching to darkness, like σκιόεις. (iii. 168.) ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/16 "2013-10-15T23:33:11Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > …Nox aeterna is a good match. Would perpetua go well? A morte perpetua, Domine, libera nos. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/17 "2013-10-15T23:52:46Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Would perpetua go well? > > A morte perpetua, Domine, libera nos. I think _aeternus_ is a better choice than _perpetuus_. The English derivatives in this case are good guides: _aeternus_ is “eternal,” and _perpertuus_ “perpetual” is continuous and uninterrupted but the focus is on the unbrokenness rather than being neverending. I don’t think we’ll hear from the OP again, though. Perhaps (s)he has already gone _in noctis aeternae tenebras_. [Re: syntax: is that right, or is it better to say _in tenebras noctis aeternae_? I know prep. + gen. + noun is fine, but I’m not sure what typically happens when the genitive modifier in a prepositional phrase has its own adjective.] ---
**Author:** ![T\_J\_O\_Hare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d78d45/32.png) [@T\_J\_O\_Hare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T_J_O_Hare)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/18 "2015-12-22T10:29:39Z")
I am looking for a word that could be used as the opposite of ‘illuminati’. In a fantasy setting, what sort of enemy would fight against the illuminate, with an antonym cognate. I can get the words such as tenebrae and obscuro, etc, but the joining together to produce, say, ‘endarkened ones’ is beyond my linguistic abilities. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/19 "2015-12-22T10:59:58Z")
> [@Johnny\_Angel](#): > > From [Döderlein’s Hand-book of Latin Synonymes](file:///I:/Latin/Dictionaries/Latin%20Synonyms.htm): [Working link to actually download the book](https://archive.org/details/dderleinshandbo02taylgoog). [Working link to the relevant page.](https://archive.org/stream/dderleinshandbo02taylgoog#page/n172/mode/2up) ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/your-latin-expertise-is-needed-once-again/671086/20 "2015-12-22T20:14:18Z")
> [@T\_J\_O\_Hare](#): > > I am looking for a word that could be used as the opposite of ‘illuminati’. In a fantasy setting, what sort of enemy would fight against the illuminate, with an antonym cognate. I can get the words such as tenebrae and obscuro, etc, but the joining together to produce, say, ‘endarkened ones’ is beyond my linguistic abilities. Thanks in advance. > > > [@Derleth](#): > > > > [Working link to actually download the book](https://archive.org/details/dderleinshandbo02taylgoog). > > > > [Working link to the relevant page.](https://archive.org/stream/dderleinshandbo02taylgoog#page/n172/mode/2up) The Döderlein is fascinating, but perhaps misleading, due to its classical sources. A concordance to the Vulgate, and the usage and context of early Church Latin would more likely capture the reflected nuance OP is searching for. I’ve always loved “thick darkness” (see sample concordance (English search, or course), [Bible Search: Thick darkness](http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=Thick+darkness).